# If it wasnt for Columbus... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 10, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164 "2016-10-10T18:04:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/41 "2016-10-10T20:19:54Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Evidently it can’t be made too often.😉 > > See my post #23. Other people, including Amerigo Vespucci, figured it out before Columbus did. Columbus had plenty of first hand evidence that he was not in the Far East, which he refused to accept. Not sure, but I imagine Columbus may have had trouble differentiating Native Americans from South Indians. Vespucci may not have made it to the Americas if not for Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/42 "2016-10-10T20:28:01Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Side question that occurred to me the other day: If everybody who was worth his salt knew that Columbus was dead wrong, how the hell did he get funded? He kept trying at various courts. Even Ferdinand and Isabella rejected him multiple times because their advisors warned that his estimates were way off. Ferdinand finally decided to give him a chance. I’m not sure what convinced him though. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/43 "2016-10-10T20:34:32Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > He kept trying at various courts. Even Ferdinand and Isabella rejected him multiple times because their advisors warned that his estimates were way off. Ferdinand finally decided to give him a chance. I’m not sure what convinced him though. I’m curious too. In today’s terms, how expensive would the venture have been compared to the wealth of Spain? Huge, small, a pittance? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/44 "2016-10-10T20:35:38Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Side question that occurred to me the other day: If everybody who was worth his salt knew that Columbus was dead wrong, how the hell did he get funded? Ferdinand was feeling good after having booted the Moors out of Spain. He basically decided to take a flyer despite the advice of the experts. Columbus was sort of a lottery ticket, not much chance of success but what the hell. Isabella was still against it. Ferdinand would have been in the doghouse if he had lost that investment.😉 > [@Doyle](#): > > I got the point, I just felt like arguing for arguments sake. Everyone knew he was searching for a route to Asia and got lucky. That’s not really good practice in General Questions. It just wastes everyone’s time. > [@Doyle](#): > > Not sure, but I imagine Columbus may have had trouble differentiating Native Americans from South Indians. Nobody in Europe really had a good first hand idea of what South Asians looked like. However, even Columbus knew he wasn’t in any place that had been described by European travelers because the people were running around nearly naked. He assumed he was in some islands near Japan that were less civilized. He called the people Indians anyway because he assumed he was somewhere in “the Indies.” > [@](#): > > Vespucci may not have made it to the Americas if not for Columbus. As has been said, Cabral discovered the Americas independently of Columbus, and others may have done so if Columbus had never existed. It wasn’t that hard to figure out that these new discoveries were not the Far East for anyone who wasn’t as blinkered as Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/45 "2016-10-10T20:39:15Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Side question that occurred to me the other day: If everybody who was worth his salt knew that Columbus was dead wrong, how the hell did he get funded? It’s interesting to note that Isabella initially turned down Columbus on the advice of her advisers. Like everyone else, her advisers (correctly) thought that Columbus was way off on his calculations. Ferdinand intervened though, and Columbus got his funding. There are several reasons why Ferdinand ignored their advisers. One is that if Columbus was right, Ferdinand feared that some other country (like Portugal) might capitalize on it and end up with a better trade route to the East. Another reason is that even if Columbus failed, he would likely find something out there, and that something might have valuable resources on it that Spain could exploit. Ferdinand and Isabella had also just retaken Spain from control of the muslims, and as a result they refused to trade with the muslims. But the muslims were the traditional middle-men for trade with eastern Asia, so Spain was desperate to find some alternate method of trading with the East. So, some crackpot’s ideas about how the Earth was really a lot smaller than Spain’s top advisers said it was had a certain appeal to Spain’s monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/46 "2016-10-10T20:40:47Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As has been said, Cabral discovered the Americas independently of Columbus, and others may have done so if Columbus had never existed. It wasn’t that hard to figure out that these new discoveries were not the Far East for anyone who wasn’t as blinkered as Columbus. Many think Cabral was tipped off, and also note his discovery of Brazil was ignored for 300 years. Still, yes, it would have happened pretty soon. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/47 "2016-10-10T20:47:53Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > I’m curious too. In today’s terms, how expensive would the venture have been compared to the wealth of Spain? Huge, small, a pittance? There is some discussion of that question [here](https://www.quora.com/How-much-would-Christopher-Columbus-voyages-cost-in-todays-dollars). And a more detailed analysis from an accounting perspective [here](http://www.cluteinstitute.com/ojs/index.php/JABR/article/viewFile/1375/1357). –Mark ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/48 "2016-10-10T20:53:16Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > That’s not really good practice in General Questions. It just wastes everyone’s time. My apologies. I didn’t really pay attention to where it was posted. May I still respond to some of your points? ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/49 "2016-10-10T21:02:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Many think Cabral was tipped off, and also note his discovery of Brazil was ignored for 300 years. > > Still, yes, it would have happened pretty soon. First colony in Brazil was 1532, 32 years not 300. Also that delay doesn’t mean it was ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/50 "2016-10-10T21:06:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Many think Cabral was tipped off, and also note his discovery of Brazil was ignored for 300 years. > > Still, yes, it would have happened pretty soon. If he was tipped off, it would have just meant that eastern Brazil had been discovered even earlier. In fact, there is some speculation that others might have reached it well before Cabral. In 1494, the King of Portugal asked that the line of the Treaty of Tordesillas be extended 270 leagues to the west to include more of the volta de mar route through the South Atlantic. But it also had the effect of including much more of Brazil, leading to speculation that the Portuguese already knew there was land there due to earlier landfalls, and that Cabral was just following up. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/51 "2016-10-10T21:09:39Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > My apologies. I didn’t really pay attention to where it was posted. May I still respond to some of your points? You seem to be mostly just ignoring many of the points that I and others have made. If you have actual questions, or if you want to dispute points based on evidence, that’s fine. But your responses shouldn’t be based just on what you learned about Columbus in third grade. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/52 "2016-10-10T21:11:30Z")
> [@rsat3acr](#): > > First colony in Brazil was 1532, 32 years not 300. Also that delay doesn’t mean it was ignored. I assume that he meant that Cabral might not have been credited as the discoverer until later. The Portuguese were actively exploring that area in the early 1500s. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/53 "2016-10-10T21:18:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You seem to be mostly just ignoring many of the points that I and others have made. If you have actual questions, or if you want to dispute points based on evidence, that’s fine. But your responses shouldn’t be based just on what you learned about Columbus in third grade. I’ve responded to most all responses. The third grade response was uncalled for. I was hoping you were above that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/54 "2016-10-10T21:21:58Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I assume that he meant that Cabral might not have been credited as the discoverer until later. The Portuguese were actively exploring that area in the early 1500s. Right. Per wiki “Cabral’s discovery, and even his resting place in the land of his birth, had been almost completely forgotten during the span of nearly 300 years since his expedition.” However, the Portuguese \*may \*only have been exploring that area due to Columbus. Or, yes, tipped off by other, unknown Portuguese sailors. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/55 "2016-10-10T22:16:04Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Ferdinand and Isabella had also just retaken Spain from control of the muslims, and as a result they refused to trade with the muslims. But the muslims were the traditional middle-men for trade with eastern Asia, so Spain was desperate to find some alternate method of trading with the East. Honestly they probably _would_ have traded with the Muslims if they could, but Venice had them locked out ;). Venice had by then largely squeezed the Genoese out of the Levantine carrying trade and jealously guarded that cash cow against all comers, _especially_ rival Christian powers. Three ships, with crews and necessary supplies wasn’t nothing economically. But it was decided it was worth it, as the potential return was huge. Vasco de Gama’s first successful trip to India in 1497-1499 reaped a massive 800% profit despite the shoddy goods he acquired ( by local standards ) and the loss of 2 of his 4 ships and half his crew. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Right. Per wiki “Cabral’s discovery, and even his resting place in the land of his birth, had been almost completely forgotten during the span of nearly 300 years since his expedition.” While Cabral himself may have been overlooked, the discovery per se wasn’t - the Portuguese began settling the area in the 1530’s. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/56 "2016-10-10T22:19:08Z")
redacted. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/57 "2016-10-10T22:50:06Z")
Columbus was hardly the first person to convince someone else (even someone else rich and powerful) to buy his crackpottery, and he wasn’t the last, either. The fact that he got Ferdinand to go along doesn’t do anything to prove that he wasn’t a crackpot: It just means that he was a crackpot and Ferdinand was gullible. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/58 "2016-10-10T23:07:51Z")
So can anyone tell me why you are not posting from the United States of Columbia? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/59 "2016-10-10T23:39:16Z")
There were several ancient Greek philosophers who took a shot at estimating the size of the earth. The most believed was Eratothsenes, who achieved a remarkably accurate measurement using shadows at noon at different latitudes. There was also Posidonius whose clauculations seemed to suggest the earth was about half its actual size. [History of geodesy - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_geodesy) Columbus took the smaller size, boosted by choosing a smaller definition of what a stadia was; and applied a very optimistic distance calculation for across Asia to China and Japan, using Marco Polo’s writings. The result, he said, was that China was only about 3,000 miles west. Most educated people subscribed to the correct number supplied by Eratothsenese, so the various rulers he approached turned him down based on court scientists’ advice. Ferdinand decided to take a shot on Columbus despite his advisers. In the last 20 years, Portugal had figured out a route to India south around Africa via the Cape of Good Hope and were getting rich, and preventing other countries from using that route. Any chance of finding an alternate route was worth a try, because the spice trade was a license to print money. Would they have eventually found America? Well, the Basque fishermen and perhaps some English and Brittany fishermen knew about the land across the sea with valuable cod stocks. Sailing technology, driven by the Africa route distances, was reaching the point where the extended voyages needed would become routine. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/60 "2016-10-10T23:48:04Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Honestly they probably _would_ have traded with the Muslims if they could, but Venice had them locked out ;). Venice had by then largely squeezed the Genoese out of the Levantine carrying trade and jealously guarded that cash cow against all comers, _especially_ rival Christian powers. > > Three ships, with crews and necessary supplies wasn’t nothing economically. But it was decided it was worth it, as the potential return was huge. Vasco de Gama’s first successful trip to India in 1497-1499 reaped a massive 800% profit despite the shoddy goods he acquired ( by local standards ) and the loss of 2 of his 4 ships and half his crew. > > While Cabral himself may have been overlooked, the discovery per se wasn’t - the Portuguese began settling the area in the 1530’s. I think it was Daniel Boorstin’s book “The Discoverers” that tracked the cascade of exploration. Each kingdom on the silk road route to China jealously excluded foreigners from their territory to keep control of the trade routes. They also applied their massive middle-man markups. During the century or so that Genghis Khan’s empire ruled middle Asia, he opened up the travel routes to everyone. This meant that families like Marco Polo and his father and uncle before him could travel to the far east unhindered. When the empire fell apart, Europeans once again were held hostage to all the gouging middlemen from Venice to Beijing, but they had a glimpse of where they needed to go. (And what riches awaited if they could simply load up a big ship with a few hundred camel-loads of spices and silk from the source and bring it directly home) Hence the impetus to discover sailing routes - they knew India faced a southern ocean, they knew China faced an ocean to the east. Was it possible to sail directly into those oceans? (The same applied to the search for the northwest passage. The known routes to China were far out of the way of the direct route, so a lot of money could be made if there were a shorter route.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164.md?page=4)