# If it wasnt for Columbus... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 10, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164 "2016-10-10T18:04:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/101 "2016-10-12T21:03:46Z")
On a different front - I think it was around 1400 or so the last Icelandic ships put in at Greenland, due to excessive pack ice as the “Little Ice Age” set in. (Jared Diamond’s book “Collapse”). The last bishop appointed to the Greenland parishes apparently never got around to visiting. But the Icelanders knew of Greenland, and it wasn’t a stretch to suppose they would eventually sail over there to see what was going on - and possibly keep going. But even though Columbus thought he was in the Indies, he still established a fort on the first voyage, and established colonies immediately thereafter. So I doubt any newly encountered “islands” would have been ignored by the sea-faring powers. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/102 "2016-10-12T21:11:34Z")
Even if Brazil was just a large island, it would still be worth further exploration, if nothing else as a waystation for longer journeys. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/103 "2016-10-12T21:22:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Still Cabral may or may not have independent of Columbus. It might have taken a couple of decades for another Portuguese explorer to be blown off course, realize what he had found, and get back to report it. > > You point it was exactly eight years is unproven. It’s unproven, but it’s also been suggested that Cabral was following up on even earlier Portuguese voyages to Brazil rather than on Columbus, so it’s a bit of a wash. And given the [volta do mar route](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_da_Gama#/media/File:Map_of_Portuguese_Carreira_da_India.gif), which went very far west in the South Atlantic and very close to Brazil, it was virtually inevitable that a Portuguese ship would hit Brazil within a few years. The [currents and winds in the South Atlantic](http://www-odp.tamu.edu/publications/175_IR/chap_17/images/17_f02.jpg)bring you straight from the Cape of Good Hope to Brazil. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/104 "2016-10-12T22:02:38Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It’s unproven, but it’s also been suggested that Cabral was following up on even earlier Portuguese voyages to Brazil rather than on Columbus, so it’s a bit of a wash. And given the [volta do mar route](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasco_da_Gama#/media/File:Map_of_Portuguese_Carreira_da_India.gif), which went very far west in the South Atlantic and very close to Brazil, it was virtually inevitable that a Portuguese ship would hit Brazil within a few years. The [currents and winds in the South Atlantic](http://www-odp.tamu.edu/publications/175_IR/chap_17/images/17_f02.jpg)bring you straight from the Cape of Good Hope to Brazil. As I said, the discovery of the Americas would come within 1-5 decades later without Columbus, so we’re basically in agreement. However, the _Volta do mar_ doesnt really come that close to Brazil: > **[Volta do mar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volta_do_mar)** > > Volta do mar, volta do mar largo, or volta do largo (the phrase in Portuguese means literally 'turn of the sea' but also 'return from the sea') is a navigational technique perfected by Portuguese navigators during the Age of Discovery in the late fifteenth century, using the dependable phenomenon of the great permanent wind circle, the North Atlantic Gyre. This was a major step in the history of navigation, when an understanding of winds in the age of sail was crucial to success: the European sea... ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/105 "2016-10-12T22:14:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > As I said, the discovery of the Americas would come within 1-5 decades later without Columbus, so we’re basically in agreement. No we’re not. It’s extremely likely that it would have taken place within two decades of Columbus at the latest. That it would have taken five decades is very unlikely. > [@](#): > > However, the _Volta do mar_ doesnt really come that close to Brazil: > [Volta do mar - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volta_do_mar) Did you even click on my links? :dubious: That’s the _volta do mar_ route in the _North_ Atlantic (mainly), as it was developed before 1460. See my links for the _volta do mar_ as it later developed ain the South Atlantic for the circum-African route. Before contradicting me you might, you know, actually read your own link: [QUOTE=Wikipedia] Similarly in the South Atlantic with the exception that the South Atlantic gyre circulates counterclockwise. As India-bound Portuguese explorers and traders crossed the equator with the intention of passing the entire western coast of Africa, their voyages took them far to the West ( **in the vicinity of Brazil.** ) [/QUOTE] Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/106 "2016-10-12T22:22:37Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > No we’re not. It’s extremely likely that it would have taken place within two decades of Columbus at the latest. That it would have taken five decades is very unlikely. > > Before contradicting me you might, you know, actually read your own link: Yeah, because 1-5 decades is Soooooooo much different than 1-2 decades. :rolleyes: Especially when others thing much longer. I did. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/107 "2016-10-12T22:26:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, because 1-5 decades is Soooooooo much different than 1-2 decades. :rolleyes: Especially when others thing much longer. It is. Please don’t assert that we are in agreement when we are not. It’s bad for my reputation. 😉 > [@](#): > > I did. Then why did you say the route didn’t pass close to Brazil, when the article says it did? Had you even heard of the _volta do mar_ before I referred to it or before you Googled the Wiki article?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/108 "2016-10-12T22:37:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It is. > > Please don’t assert that we are in agreement when we are not. It’s bad for my reputation. 😉 > > Then why did you say the route didn’t pass close to Brazil, when the article says it did? > > Had you even heard of the _volta do mar_ before I referred to it or before you Googled the Wiki article?:dubious: I know, no one ever agrees with you, you like it that way!😛 I said “However, the Volta do mar doesnt really come that close to Brazil:” and it doesnt come within sight. I did cite the wiki article. Not by that name, but by the terms North Atlantic Gyre, tradewinds and other oceanic techniques used during the Age of Sail. Some credit Columbus for first use of the tradewinds. I am doubtful, but no doubt he used them to good effect. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/109 "2016-10-12T22:43:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I said “However, the Volta do mar doesnt really come that close to Brazil:” and it doesnt come within sight. I did cite the wiki article. It’s ridiculous to assert that by “that close” you meant “within sight.” It appears that you just skimmed through the article (if that), saw the map of the North Atlantic portion, and then jumped to the conclusion that that was the entire volta do mar. > [@](#): > > Not by that name, If you never heard of it before, then why are you contradicting me on it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/110 "2016-10-12T22:53:45Z")
Is there any one individual who is generally thought of as discovering the _volta do mar_? Seems like it was not something that would have been discovered incrementally by a number of unknowns. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/111 "2016-10-12T23:13:31Z")
Nm 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/112 "2016-10-12T23:27:28Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It’s ridiculous to assert that by “that close” you meant “within sight.” It appears that you just skimmed through the article (if that), saw the map of the North Atlantic portion, and then jumped to the conclusion that that was the entire volta do mar. > > If you never heard of it before, then why are you contradicting me on it? Because I knew about the North Atlantic Gyre. If you never heard of\* it \*before, then why are you contradicting me on it? In any case, for your theory to be correct, you’d have to show : 1. That Cabral did not know of Columbus’s discoveries. However, the hypothesis did know is held by several well known historians. We’ll never really know. Due to the Treaty of Tordesillas the Portuguese wanted lands in that area. 2. That before Cabral, Portuguese navigators used the volta do mar/North Atlantic Gyre to routinely go that far westward. But since C_abral is documented to be the first to go that far_, and since sailing further only wastes time, money and is risky, why assume others would start routinely doing it? Note that the wiki map I linked to shows the extant of the volta do mar before Columbus. Can you show the Portuguese navigators were going as far west as Cabral did- before Cabral “discovered” Brazil\*? - Of course, natives were there before and also Vespucci, Pinzón and De Lepe. All of whom sailed due to Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/113 "2016-10-12T23:34:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is there any one individual who is generally thought of as discovering the _volta do mar_? Seems like it was not something that would have been discovered incrementally by a number of unknowns. It was discovered by trial and error over a period of time. When one voyager reported having good winds along a certain route, others would repeat it. In portions where he found adverse winds or was becalmed, others might try a different route until they found a circuit that worked. I believe that Vasco da Gama pioneered the far offshore route on the outward leg through the South Atlantic. Cabral on a follow-up voyage swung out even farther which brought him to Brazil. An easy round-trip route across the Pacific from the Americas was forestalled for more than 40 years before a good return route eastward was found. Magellan was able to use the westward trade winds when he crossed in 1521, but efforts to find good easterly winds failed until 1565. After that a trade was established by the [Manila Galleons](“Drive straight ahead until you see a house with a broken fence. Make a right after that house and keep going until you pass two big rocks on the left. Soon after that you will see a bush that looks like a giant cockroach. Turn left at that bush and keep going for another twenty minutes. You should pass two gas stations on your right. About a mile after the second gas station, you will see three mounds of dirt and a house with a horse tied to a tree. Make a right at that house and it will be the second restaurant on your left. The sign is broken but you can’t miss it. It has a rock next to it that looks like a bear holding a sword. You may see a few people standing outside drinking beer. Good luck!”) between the Spanish colony in the Philippines and Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/114 "2016-10-12T23:36:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because I knew about the North Atlantic Gyre. If you never heard of\* it \*before, then why are you contradicting me on it? Of course I’ve heard of it before, and I didn’t contradict you on it. And no, I’m not going to argue with you about the rest of it. It’s not worth it and will give me a headache.😉 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/115 "2016-10-13T02:32:21Z")
It seems that the main reason for the OP has been decided: one way or another, the Americas would have been discovered in short order. That being said, I think the criticisms leveled at Columbus as an explorer are misguided. He was wrong, and he certainly had some flaws, but I do think there was at least one element of his character which did lead to greater things, and in a good way. He’s the first man I know of to have set out to test classical ideas, not in academic experiments, but in genuine exploration of the world. IN that sense, he can be thought of as the first anthropologist, and certainly an early scientist. True, his figures were wrong - but scientists are quite often wrong, and just as often don’t realize the true importance of their own discoveries. Columbus had a theory, and he set out to test it against the world. His reward was to find something new. And hey, it’s not like he knew what the natives of Cipangu looked like; few Europeans of his day had even seen the near side of India, and perhaps none had set foot in the Far East. He found lands right where his calculations said they would be, and he only saw small areas of the New World. I think we can forgive him a little confusion on the point. And in doing that, he inspired generations of explorers to travel the world ever more widely and test rumor, gossip, ideas and reams. He wasn’t the first, and he wasn’t the last, but Columbus strikes me as a bit of Baron von Munchhausen - and we can always use a few more of those. ---
**Author:** ![Dana\_Scully](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@Dana\_Scully](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dana_Scully)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/116 "2016-10-13T02:57:20Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > He told Queen Isabella that he was going to find Ray Charles.🙂 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/117 "2016-10-13T04:00:59Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > He’s the first man I know of to have set out to test classical ideas, not in academic experiments, but in genuine exploration of the world. IN that sense, he can be thought of as the first anthropologist, and certainly an early scientist. True, his figures were wrong - but scientists are quite often wrong, and just as often don’t realize the true importance of their own discoveries. The problem with this analogy is that Columbus _didn’t_ actually test his theory. Sure, he made the voyage, but once he was there he didn’t critically test the idea he was in the Asia. Instead, he interpreted everything he saw as confirming he was in Asia, and refused to consider contrary evidence. He’s a great example of confirmation bias rather than of the actual scientific method. The cost was that his great discovery ended up being named for someone who actually did evaluate the evidence and came up with the correct explanation, Vespucci. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/118 "2016-10-13T05:02:52Z")
Aha … finally found it: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=791905&highlight=newfoundland](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=791905&highlight=newfoundland) > [@](#): > > Catholicism gave the Basques their great opportunity. The medieval church imposed fast days on which sexual intercourse and the eating of flesh were forbidden, but eating “cold” foods was permitted. Because fish came from water, it was deemed cold, as were waterfowl and whale, but meat was considered hot food. The Basques were already selling whale meat to Catholics on “lean days,” which, since Friday was the day of Christ’s crucifixion, included all Fridays, the forty days of Lent, and various other days of note on the religious calendar. In total, meat was forbidden for almost half the days of the year, and those lean days eventually became salt cod days. Cod became almost a religious icon–a mythological crusader for Christian observance. > > The Basques were getting richer every Friday. But where was all this cod coming from? The Basques, who had never even said where they came from, kept their secret. By the fifteenth century, this was no longer easy to do, because cod had become widely recognized as a highly profitable commodity and commercial interests around Europe were looking for new cod grounds. There were cod off of Iceland and in the North Sea, but the Scandinavians, who had been fishing cod in those waters for thousands of years, had not seen the Basques. The British, who had been fishing for cod well offshore since Roman times, did not run across Basque fishermen even in the fourteenth century, when British fishermen began venturing up to Icelandic waters. The Bretons, who tried to follow the Basques, began talking of a land across the sea. > > In the 1480s, a conflict was brewing between Bristol merchants and the Hanseatic League. The league had been formed in thirteenth-century Lubeck to regulate trade and stand up for the interests of the merchant class in northern German towns. Hanse means “fellowship” in Middle High German. This fellowship organized town by town and spread throughout northern Europe, including London. By controlling the mouths of all the major rivers that ran north from central Europe, from the Rhine to the Vistula, the league was able to control much of European trade and especially Baltic trade. By the fourteenth century, it had chapters as far north as Iceland, as far east as Riga, south to the Ukraine, and west to Venice. > > For many years, the league was seen as a positive force in northern Europe. It stood up against the abuses of monarchs, stopped piracy, dredged channels, and built lighthouses. In England, league members were called Easterlings because they came from the east, and their good reputation is reflected in the word sterling, which comes from Easterling and means “of assured value.” > > But the league grew increasingly abusive of its power and ruthless in defense of trade monopolies. In 1381, mobs rose up in England and hunted down Hanseatics, killing anyone who could not say bread and cheese with an English accent. > > The Hanseatics monopolized the Baltic herring trade and in the fifteenth century attempted to do the same with dried cod. By then, dried cod had become an important product in Bristol. Bristol’s well-protected but difficult-to-navigate harbor had greatly expanded as a trade center because of its location between Iceland and the Mediterranean. It had become a leading port for dried cod from Iceland and wine, especially sherry, from Spain. But in 1475, the Hanseatic League cut off Bristol merchants from buying Icelandic cod. > > Thomas Croft, a wealthy Bristol customs official, trying to find a new source of cod, went into partnership with John Jay, a Bristol merchant who had what was at the time a Bristol obsession: He believed that somewhere in the Atlantic was an island called Hy-Brasil. In 1480, Jay sent his first ship in search of this island, which he hoped would offer a new fishing base for cod. In 1481, Jay and Croft outfitted two more ships, the Trinity and the George. No record exists of the result of this enterprise. Croft and Jay were as silent as the Basques. They made no announcement of the discovery of Hy-Brasil, and history has written off the voyage as a failure. But they did find enough cod so that in 1490, when the Hanseatic League offered to negotiate to reopen the Iceland trade, Croft and Jay simply weren’t interested anymore. > > Where was their cod coming from? It arrived in Bristol dried, and drying cannot be done on a ship deck. Since their ships sailed out of the Bristol Channel and traveled far west of Ireland and there was no land for drying fish west of Ireland–Jay had still not found Hy-Brasil–it was suppposed that Croft and Jay were buying the fish somewhere. Since it was illegal for a customs official to engage in foreign trade, Croft was prosecuted. Claiming that he had gotten the cod far out in the Atlantic, he was acquitted without any secrets being revealed. > > To the glee of the British press, a letter has recently been discovered. The letter had been sent to Christopher Columbus, a decade after the Croft affair in Bristol, while Columbus was taking bows for his discovery of America. The letter, from Bristol merchants, alleged that he knew perfectly well that they had been to America already. It is not known if Columbus ever replied. He didn’t need to. Fishermen were keeping their secrets, while explorers were telling the world. Columbus had claimed the entire new world for Spain. I’m not sure I believe the last bit about the letter, it’s too convenient. There have been discoveries of Basque shore facilities in Labrador for processing cod, dating to around the time of Columbus. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/119 "2016-10-13T05:06:32Z")
You know I think **Little Nemo** has a point. How many times did sailors sight or land in Australia before Cook? America may well have remained a curiosity for centuries, like Australia. And people actually thought there was land in the Southern Hemisphere. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164/120 "2016-10-13T05:16:52Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > What I would like a cite for is cases in which Europeans in the early 1500s found major new lands with valuable resources (like Brazil) and completely ignored them because they weren’t on the way to Asia. You’re asking me to provide you with examples from history of things that happened after Columbus didn’t discover America? > [@Colibri](#): > > Speak for yourself. I’ve been providing detailed cites all along, with names, dates, and links. As I have noted above, my case is based on having read dozens of accounts of early exploration and colonization, many based on primary sources. You’ve provided nothing but opinion. And citing general secondary sources provides no support for the specifics of the argument. And now you’re saying your posts are your cites. You seem to be looking for an argument and I’m not interested in having one. So this is where I walk away. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-columbus/768164.md?page=7)