# If it wasn't for the NRA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2019, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645 "2019-12-10T13:31:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/61 "2019-12-12T07:41:29Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > The disconnect here is a kind of bait-and-switch: > > The Second Amendment is sold as a defense against tyranny, which comes from modern governments. > > When you point out that modern tyrants have mortars and guided missiles, all of a sudden it’s about defense against home invasion. Well, there isn’t one universal dogma regarding the 2nd Amendment and why it’s useful. There are numerous discrete arguments that are made on behalf of its utility. But even the “defense against tyranny” people often are coming at it with a little more nuanced of a perspective than what you’re implying here. I mean, keep in mind that there are a great many adherents to the “fighting against the government/fighting against warring factions in some kind of catastrophic government-collapse scenario” who have, in fact, spent years, DECADES, in the military themselves. These people aren’t mindlessly repeating talking points from Wayne LaPierre. I know guys who spent an unbelievable amount of their lives in combat arms positions in the military, being shuffled from command to command, deploying in hot conflicts, attending all kinds of schools and exercises and cross-training with other countries’ forces…living this life for a decade or more…and these guys will talk your ear off about how the US military sucks ass at fighting asymmetrical warfare and that in fact they WOULD be in serious, serious trouble if Americans took up arms. We can’t just throw their perspective in the garbage because some idiot in Montana who’s lived in the same 25 mile radius his entire life and does nothing but listen to Mark Levin and post memes on Facebook all day long happens to make kinda-sorta the same argument, just from a really, really ignorant scatterbrained speculative standpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/62 "2019-12-12T14:55:50Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > You know, you can argue vigorously for your side on a particular issue. But I don’t think you get to argue for your side AND also declare what the other side’s arguments are. That’s not a debate, that’s you talking to yourself. I’m just giving my experience. You can deny that you’re like that, and I’ll concede that not all gun owners harbor fantasies of armed revolution, but pretending they don’t exist is dishonest. Well, not so much dishonest as a rather poor tactic. Because you won’t convince me I didn’t have experiences I remember having. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/63 "2019-12-12T15:17:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t know about that. I’ve always felt that the main selling point of gun ownership has been self-defense against regular criminals. I feel that very few people own a gun with the idea that they might need it for a potential uprising. Yes. But the folks who think they might need it in defense against tyranny sometimes have enough to arm a battalion. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/64 "2019-12-12T15:22:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I realize it’s perhaps unfair to respond to HD when he is no longer able to respond back. But I’ll point out that he moved the goal posts here. I said there was no serious movement to _ban_ firearms, not that there was no serious movement to _regulate_ firearms. There is almost always a move to ban firearms somewhere in this country. The notion that this is some conspiracy theory being propagated by the NRA is actually a conspiracy theory propogated by the folks who want to ban firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/65 "2019-12-12T15:32:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There is almost always a move to ban firearms somewhere in this country. The notion that this is some conspiracy theory being propagated by the NRA is actually a conspiracy theory propogated by the folks who want to ban firearms. By “ban firearms” do you mean a total ban on all firearms, or do you mean any laws that you find restrictive? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/66 "2019-12-13T16:21:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > By “ban firearms” do you mean a total ban on all firearms, or do you mean any laws that you find restrictive? Do you think the NRA is riling people up by telling them that someone is trying to pass legislation banning ALL firearms or are they talking about the actual attempts in many jurisdictions to ban on some firearms? As we have already concluded on this board, assault weapons bans are stupid. Some gun control folks have come to understand how stupid it is to ban firearms based on cosmetic features (or at least how stupid it makes them look) and now propose to ban all semi-automatic firearms (coupled with confiscation). There has been a series of blue wave elections in Virginia since Trump has been in office and the Democrats here have decided that this means they have a mandate to ban semi-automatic firearms. Proposed legislation would ban everything from a Glock to an AR-15. This is bad for the Democratic party in Virginia. This might work in a few years when the Democratic party’s hold over Virginia is more secure but right now it is just telling people like me that we should vote Republican as soon as Trump is out of office. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/67 "2019-12-13T16:24:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Do you think the NRA is riling people up by telling them that someone is trying to pass legislation banning ALL firearms or are they talking about the actual attempts in many jurisdictions to ban on some firearms? > > As we have already concluded on this board, assault weapons bans are stupid. > > Some gun control folks have come to understand how stupid it is to ban firearms based on cosmetic features (or at least how stupid it makes them look) and now propose to ban all semi-automatic firearms (coupled with confiscation). > > There has been a series of blue wave elections in Virginia since Trump has been in office and the Democrats here have decided that this means they have a mandate to ban semi-automatic firearms. Proposed legislation would ban everything from a Glock to an AR-15. This is bad for the Democratic party in Virginia. This might work in a few years when the Democratic party’s hold over Virginia is more secure but right now it is just telling people like me that we should vote Republican as soon as Trump is out of office. That is a lot of typing to go through to NOT answer a simple question. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/68 "2019-12-13T16:30:23Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > Really? What’s this? **H.R.1296 - Assault Weapons Ban of 2019** (currently in the House Judiciary Committee) > It’s got **Ban** and **2019** in the Bill’s title; I guess they just put those in for shits & giggles, not that they were serious? That law didn’t prohibit people from buying or owning firearms. So it’s not a ban on firearms. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/69 "2019-12-13T19:01:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The NRA is a symptom of a political problem: there are a LOT of gun owners and many of them are single issue voters. If the NRA disbanded tomorrow, these gun owners would still exist, they would still vote the same way, you’d just have a temporary vacuum which would quickly be filled by a new gun rights organization that would represent all those voters. > > … > > The poltiics of gun control are similar to the politics of abortion. In an environment where everyone acknowledges gun rights, opposition to common sense regulation would not be significant. But gun rights advocates see ANY regulations as an attempt to move the ball towards the eventual goal of total bans on civilian gun ownership. Just as in the abortion debate, pro-choice activists will tolerate no regulations whatsoever because they know pro-lifers don’t want a half a loaf. They want the whole loaf. In Europe, where everyone is basically pro-choice, abortion is restricted and there isn’t much controversy around it because the basic idea of abortion rights is not under assault. I actually agree with **adaher** here, except that there is already a gun-owners org which thinks the NRA is too soft on gun control. So, there’s already a gun rights org out there waiting to step into the NRAs jackboots. Note the NRA wasnt such a reactionary org for most of it’s lifetime. And note that the NRA is way low on the totem pole for money spent on lobbying. It’s not even in the top 100. (Health orgs are #1, and Pharma, with Big Tobacco being pretty significant) The $ the NRA spends hardly moves the needle. It’s that 5 million single issue voters. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/70 "2019-12-13T19:03:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That law didn’t prohibit people from buying or owning firearms. So it’s not a ban on firearms. It’s a ban on selling firearms, so yes it is. Lets not get into the that odd concept that unless a gun control las completely and totally bans the possession of every gun to everyone it’s not a “gun ban”. The people who wrote the law called it a “ban”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/71 "2019-12-13T19:06:36Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The mindset that the NRA represents has already been alluded to, but I’ll put it in stark terms. They are white people who want protection against Others, mostly people of color and immigrants, an overlapping set. > > … There are plenty of blacks, women, etc who own guns and even belong to the NRA. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/72 "2019-12-13T19:07:38Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Is it your stance that red flag laws hamper law abiding gun owners? The **ACLU** seems to think so, since many Red Flag laws dont have legit Due Process. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/73 "2019-12-13T19:15:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There are plenty of blacks, women, etc who own guns and even belong to the NRA. Blacks? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/74 "2019-12-13T19:32:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s a ban on selling firearms, so yes it is. Lets not get into the that odd concept that unless a gun control las completely and totally bans the possession of every gun to everyone it’s not a “gun ban”. The people who wrote the law called it a “ban”. Okay, so you think a ban on assault weapons is a ban on firearms in general. Do you feel that the ban on assault weapons banned anything else? Did it ban automobiles or computers or toasters? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/75 "2019-12-13T22:06:27Z")
[Obama wanted to ban most guns and was against people using a firearm to protect themselves.](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2015/07/29/does-obama-think-people-should-be-allowed-to-own-guns/) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/76 "2019-12-13T22:16:42Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > [Obama wanted to ban most guns and was against people using a firearm to protect themselves.](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2015/07/29/does-obama-think-people-should-be-allowed-to-own-guns/) Breitbart? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/77 "2019-12-13T22:21:39Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > [Obama wanted to ban most guns and was against people using a firearm to protect themselves.](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2015/07/29/does-obama-think-people-should-be-allowed-to-own-guns/) Warning: Breitbart link. The article summarizes to “not especially so, but you’ve already been clickbaited by our alarmist headline so… whatever.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/78 "2019-12-13T22:41:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Okay, so you think a ban on assault weapons is a ban on firearms in general. Do you feel that the ban on assault weapons banned anything else? Did it ban automobiles or computers or toasters? No, see you added those words “in general” . :rolleyes: Assault weapons are guns. Thus a ban on assault weapons is a ban on guns. A specific type of gun. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/79 "2019-12-13T22:43:36Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > [Obama wanted to ban most guns and was against people using a firearm to protect themselves.](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2015/07/29/does-obama-think-people-should-be-allowed-to-own-guns/) Yeah, that site is bogus. Geez, dude, I am strongly pro Bill of Rights, which includes the 2nd, but even\*\* I\*\* wouldn’t use that cite. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645/80 "2019-12-13T23:36:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, see you added those words “in general” . :rolleyes: > > Assault weapons are guns. Thus a ban on assault weapons is a ban on guns. A specific type of gun. That’s like saying open season on deer means open season on mammals, since deer are a specific type of mammal. All it means is you’d have to spend the rest of the discussion clarifying that you _don’t_ mean hunting humans, if you insist on continuing to use “open season on mammals” because it’s “accurate”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-wasnt-for-the-nra/844645.md?page=5)