# If it weren't for religion, would the folks in the middle east still be fighting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753 "2010-05-17T13:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/1 "2010-05-17T13:37:57Z")
This is something in my head that I’ve always believed to be true. But then again, I’m not exactly an expert when it comes to the Middle East. Just curious if there is an argument otherwise. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/2 "2010-05-17T13:43:57Z")
Less than they are now, but there’d still be fighting. You have all the ethnic tensions, the outside powers playing games over oil and the Cold War (all made worse thanks to the legacy of colonialism), and plain old national squabbling. But no one would be fighting over the holy Land just because it’s “Holy” anymore, or because someone belonged to the wrong denomination; and there’d be less of an excuse for the worst behavior. It would probably I think ease the violence more at the subnational level than the national. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/3 "2010-05-17T13:44:05Z")
Are you talking about the Arab-Israeli conflict? Then probably yes. It’s more about nationalism and land than it is about religion; the latter didn’t really become a factor until relatively recently. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/4 "2010-05-17T13:44:07Z")
I think the fighting would continue, but the intensity might decrease because they wouldn’t be able to say that they were following orders from an unverifiable source that is above and beyond all civilized behaviour. Also, fanaticism because of a supposed afterlife reward would be curtailed. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/5 "2010-05-17T13:46:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think the fighting would continue, but the intensity might decrease because they wouldn’t be able to say that they were following orders from an unverifiable source thatis above and beyond all civilized behaviour. Also, fanaticism because of a supposed afterlife reward would be curtailed. Possibly, but fanaticism because “screw it, I’m an unemployed young man with nothing to look forward to but a meaningless life of poverty and boredom, stuck in one of the world’s largest urban slums” would likely continue unabated. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/6 "2010-05-17T14:37:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Are you talking about the Arab-Israeli conflict? > > Then probably yes. It’s more about nationalism and land than it is about religion; the latter didn’t really become a factor until relatively recently. I’m not sure I understand this. I mean, if it weren’t for religion, then there would have been no formation of the Israeli state, would there have been? I’m just not sure what the (very brief) OP means by “if there weren’t religion.” Now, or ever? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/7 "2010-05-17T14:40:37Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m not sure I understand this. I mean, if it weren’t for religion, then there would have been no formation of the Israeli state, would there have been? I’m just not sure what the (very brief) OP means by “if there weren’t religion.” Now, or ever? Israel isn’t the only place involved in the fighting. I doubt the region would be a pacifist paradise if the Jews had collectively decided to settle someplace else. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/8 "2010-05-17T14:43:48Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Possibly, but fanaticism because “screw it, I’m an unemployed young man with nothing to look forward to but a meaningless life of poverty and boredom, stuck in one of the world’s largest urban slums” would likely continue unabated. Not as many of _them_, and few of them have the moxie/energy/dedication to become martyrs. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/9 "2010-05-17T14:44:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Israel isn’t the only place involved in the fighting. I doubt the region would be a pacifist paradise if the Jews had collectively decided to settle someplace else. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/10 "2010-05-17T14:47:55Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m not sure I understand this. I mean, if it weren’t for religion, then there would have been no formation of the Israeli state, would there have been? Yes. Zionism was a secular, nationalistic movement. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/11 "2010-05-17T14:48:26Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m not sure I understand this. I mean, if it weren’t for religion, then there would have been no formation of the Israeli state, would there have been? I’m just not sure what the (very brief) OP means by “if there weren’t religion.” Now, or ever? Gotta seperate out, if possible, the use of religion as an ethnic identifier from the actual belief in god bit. A majority of Jewish Zionist Israelis are not religious in the latter sense. They identify as Jews, certainly, but as an ethnicity. The “founding fathers” of Zionism were mostly atheistic and socialist ethno-nationalists who happened to be Jewish. If Judaism had never been a religion, but only a culture and ethnicity, it would have made little difference. Arabs and Jews would still have conflicting nationalisms. Note that the PLO was originally formed by Arab ethno-nationalists who were not particularly religious, either (some were Christian, most Muslim). The upsurge in Islamic religiousity represented by Hamas is comparatively recent. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/12 "2010-05-17T14:51:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not as many of _them_, and few of them have the moxie/energy/dedication to become martyrs. Don’t agree. If the history of the 20th century has taught anything, it is that mechanisms of mass belonging do not have to be religious to inspire fanatical devotion. Communism, ethnic nationalism, etc. do perfectly well, and are in fact interchangeable with religion as a motivator. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/13 "2010-05-17T14:53:51Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > This is something in my head that I’ve always believed to be true. Sure. That area has been fought over for thousands and thousands of years. I’m not really sure that religion is more than one convenient excuse. I’d suggest that Ethnicity is more pertitent. Jews vs Palestinians, Palestinians vs Arabs, Persians vs Arabs vs Kurds, Egyptians vs Arabs, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/14 "2010-05-17T14:55:13Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m not sure I understand this. I mean, if it weren’t for religion, then there would have been no formation of the Israeli state, would there have been? I’m just not sure what the (very brief) OP means by “if there weren’t religion.” Now, or ever? Well, if there had never been religion, then it’s quite possible that Judaism wouldn’t have survived for the thousands of years it had.. But it’s not like the founders of the Israeli state were religious. They were a bunch of socialist atheists, for the most part (and most of the rest were a mix of free market liberal atheists and authoritarian nationalist atheists), so religion didn’t have much to do with the formation of the Israeli state itself. Rabbi Kook aside, the Religious Zionists came pretty late to the party, and they weren’t really important in the struggle for independence. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/15 "2010-05-17T15:00:49Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Egyptians vs Arabs Egyptians are Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/16 "2010-05-17T15:03:16Z")
[QUOTE=Shakes] **If it weren’t for religion, would the folks in the middle east still be fighting?** [/QUOTE] Yes. Religion is just a vehicle. If humans were all the same color, size, sex, had the same intellectual aptitude, and liked the same sports teams, we’d still find ways, in our cleverness, to hate each other. You wear Nike; I like Reebok. Let’s knife fight. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/17 "2010-05-17T15:13:15Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, if there had never been religion, then it’s quite possible that Judaism wouldn’t have survived for the thousands of years it had.. But it’s not like the founders of the Israeli state were religious. They were a bunch of socialist atheists, for the most part (and most of the rest were a mix of free market liberal atheists and authoritarian nationalist atheists), so religion didn’t have much to do with the formation of the Israeli state itself. Rabbi Kook aside, the Religious Zionists came pretty late to the party, and they weren’t really important in the struggle for independence. I apologize for my continued difficulty in separating the current and historical cultural from religious Judaism. As you said, if there had never been a Jewish religion, I don’t know that there would presently be a Jewish culture. But I’m just a godless mutt, so I don’t understand or sympathize much with either religious or tribal fervour. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/18 "2010-05-17T15:31:08Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > As you said, if there had never been a Jewish religion, I don’t know that there would presently be a Jewish culture. Probably. Ironically one of the factors that kept Jews so cohesive as a group is the history of relentless persecution we’ve faced. Time and again we’ve seen that when things get very easy, Jews tend to assimilate very rapidly. So as long as people hated Jews, there would be Jewish culture. And as long as people hated Jews, some Jews would want to escape to a homeland. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/19 "2010-05-17T15:34:38Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I apologize for my continued difficulty in separating the current and historical cultural from religious Judaism. As you said, if there had never been a Jewish religion, I don’t know that there would presently be a Jewish culture. > > But I’m just a godless mutt, so I don’t understand or sympathize much with either religious or tribal fervour. What about partisan or patriotic fervour? It’s really no different, in this respect, and requires no god. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/20 "2010-05-17T15:35:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > partisan or patriotic fervour Macs vs PC’s. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753.md?page=2)