# If it weren't for religion, would the folks in the middle east still be fighting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753 "2010-05-17T13:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/41 "2010-05-17T18:19:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Egyptians are Arabs. Partially. Egyptians have been there 5000 years and more. Arabs are later arrivals. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/42 "2010-05-17T19:12:13Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I appreciate your efforts, **Malthus** , but I still don’t get it. Unlike Judaism, neither Greeks nor Turks historically based their cohesiveness on a religious practice. What, exactly, do the Greeks and Turks base their distinctive identities on? > [@](#): > > At what point in history do you believe a significant percentage of Jews abandoned the religious part? My suspicion (with no cites) is that it occurred somewhat recently - after the majority of Jews had existed as a religious community for at least a millenium or more. Most cultural or national groups existed as religious communities, until relatively recently. The key event for Jews was probably the Jewish Enlightenment, or “Haskalah”: > **[Haskalah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskalah)** > > The Haskalah (Hebrew: הַשְׂכָּלָה, Ashkenazic: Haskole; literally, "wisdom", "erudition" or "education"), often termed the Jewish Enlightenment, was an intellectual movement among the Jews of Central and Eastern Europe, with a certain influence on those in Western Europe and the Muslim world. It arose as a defined ideological worldview during the 1770s, and its last stage ended around 1881, with the rise of Jewish nationalism. > The movement advocated against Jewish reclusiveness, encouraged t... Note that this parallels the “Enlightenment” generally in the so-called “Christian” world, and had the exact same effect - the breaking of the millenial-old strangle-hold of religion over (in this case, Jewish) scholarship and education, in the 18th century. Modern Jewish religious movements, such as Orthodoxy, are is _response_ to the Haskalah. > [@](#): > > Even as emancipation eased integration into wider society and assimilation prospered, the haskalah also resulted in the creation of secular Jewish culture, with an emphasis on Jewish history and Jewish identity, rather than religion. This resulted in the engagement of Jews in a variety of competing ways within the countries where they lived; these included the struggle for Jewish emancipation, involvement in new Jewish political movements, and later, in the face of continued persecutions in late nineteenth century Europe, the development of a Jewish Nationalism. One source describes these effects as, “The emancipation of the Jews brought forth two opposed movements: the cultural assimilation, begun by Moses Mendelssohn, and Zionism, founded by Theodor Herzl in 1896.”[4] > > One facet of haskalah was a widespread cultural adaptation, as those Jews who participated in the enlightenment began in varying degrees to participate in the cultural practices of the surrounding Gentile population. Connected with this was the birth of the Reform movement, whose founders such as Israel Jacobson and Leopold Zunz rejected the continuing observance of those aspects of Jewish law which they classified as ritual, as opposed to moral or ethical. Even within orthodoxy the Haskalah was felt through the appearance of the Mussar Movement in Lithuania and Torah im Derech Eretz in Germany. Enlightened Jews sided with Gentile governments in plans to increase secular education amongst the Jewish masses, bringing them into acute conflict with the orthodox who believed this threatened Jewish life. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/43 "2010-05-17T19:13:32Z")
It’s worth asking what would have happened if European Jews had all converted to Christianity around 1000 years ago. Would they have remained an ethnically distinct minority to an extent that anti-semitism would still have emereged? Would the Holocause still have happened? If not, then there’s a good chance that the State of Israel would not have been founded either. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/44 "2010-05-17T19:18:07Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > It’s worth asking what would have happened if European Jews had all converted to Christianity around 1000 years ago. > > Would they have remained an ethnically distinct minority to an extent that anti-semitism would still have emereged? Would the Holocause still have happened? > > If not, then there’s a good chance that the State of Israel would not have been founded either. If the Jews had all converted to Christianity, they would perhaps have been integrated and assimilated as a distinct national or tribal identity. If the Greeks had all converted to Islam 1000 years ago, there probably would have been no Greek/Turk partition disasters, either. However, Jews merely becoming athiest does not seem to have had the same effect - see above note about the impact of the Haskalah. Jewish “enlightenment” from religion actually fueled Zionism. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/45 "2010-05-17T19:26:32Z")
As someone whose only allegiance is to my self, my family, my friends and my pets, I just don’t get any of this tribal-religion thang. Why anyone would want to cling to such cultural and historical excess baggage, is hard for me to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/46 "2010-05-17T19:37:13Z")
Thanks again, **Malthus**. I’ll look into the material you cite when I get a chance. And I don’t know what Greeks and Turks base their identity upon. I guess I would have assumed geography. Was at a program the other day with a secular rabbi as the featured speaker. Tho I agreed with him on so much philosophically, I still had a tough time getting my head around the fact that he said a visit to the western wall meant something to him. And I never got around to asking him whether or not he believed in a supernatural being. Here’s another stupid question. What is a Jew? (I understand - of course - that many different answers are possible.) But if a significant part of it has to do with the “celebration” of rituals and such that were originally religious in nature, or descent from such people, I have a hard time separating the religion from the culture. And why is Israel important? Isn’t because some temple was there for a brief period a long time ago? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/47 "2010-05-17T19:42:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Most cultural or national groups existed as religious communities, until relatively recently. Is this necessarily so? > [@](#): > > The key event for Jews was probably the Jewish Enlightenment, or “Haskalah”: Man, that was like 200 years ago! A blink of the eye compared to the history of the religion. Like I said, I’ll look into it further. But the chronology alone sure supports my uninformed impression of Jewish culture as a relatively recent (and likely less influential) “offshoot” of the religion. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/48 "2010-05-17T20:00:05Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Thanks again, **Malthus**. I’ll look into the material you cite when I get a chance. > > And I don’t know what Greeks and Turks base their identity upon. I guess I would have assumed geography. Remember that song: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv-KcF3Rkv8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv-KcF3Rkv8) 😃 [What is not the capital of Turkey was once the capital of Byzantium - a Greek and Christian empire. So geography doesn’t explain it] > [@](#): > > Was at a program the other day with a secular rabbi as the featured speaker. Tho I agreed with him on so much philosophically, I still had a tough time getting my head around the fact that he said a visit to the western wall meant something to him. And I never got around to asking him whether or not he believed in a supernatural being. It is a matter of connection to one’s history. The Western Wall was once a retaining-wall of the Temple mount, a very important location in Jewish history. > [@](#): > > Here’s another stupid question. What is a Jew? (I understand - of course - that many different answers are possible.) But if a significant part of it has to do with the “celebration” of rituals and such that were originally religious in nature, or descent from such people, I have a hard time separating the religion from the culture. > > And why is Israel important? Isn’t because some temple was there for a brief period a long time ago? A Jew is someone descended from a Jew, who has not taken up a different identity by conversion, or someone who has converted (the latter is rare). The exact method of descent necessary is subject to controversy, with some sects holding that descent through the female line is required. Thus, you can have “atheist Jews” but not “Christian Jews” or “Muslim Jews”, at least according to Jews (non-Jews often felt differently about this - converting did not save Jews from the Nazis, for example). Religions which are more in the nature of philosophical orientations and do not involve formal ceremonies of alligance and do not involve admitting the existence of a competing deity do not appear to strip one of one’s Jewish ethnicity - thus you can be a “Zen Buddhist Jew” or a “Taoist Jew” if you want to be. Whether one is a _good_ Jew is again a matter of controversy. Traditionally, this depends on adherence to Jewish rituals - the stricter the adherence, the “better” - but this is challenged by those who state that what is important is to be morally, not ritually, correct - these tend to be those who follow enlightenment values, whose “morality” is really a secular morality based on the Golden Rule. This is however not a new position. > [@](#): > > The Talmud in tractate Shabbos 31a relates the following well-known story of Hillel: > > "On another occasion it happened that a certain heathen came before Shammai and said to him, “Make me a proselyte, on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot.”[1] Thereupon he chased him away with the builder’s cubit that was in his hand.[2] When he came before Hillel, (he also asked Hillel to teach him the entire Torah while standing on one foot) Hillel replied, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Torah while the rest is commentary; go and learn it. Rabbi Hillel was supposedly born in 110 BCE … ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/49 "2010-05-17T20:04:37Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Is this necessarily so? Again, compare to European practice generally. > [@](#): > > Man, that was like 200 years ago! A blink of the eye compared to the history of the religion. > > Like I said, I’ll look into it further. But the chronology alone sure supports my uninformed impression of Jewish culture as a relatively recent (and likely less influential) “offshoot” of the religion. That’s like saying that France is fundamentally a Christian nation, based on its millenial history as the heart of “Christendom”, and all that stuff since the French Revolution is just a relatively recent and minor “offshoot”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/50 "2010-05-17T21:43:27Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > It’s worth asking what would have happened if European Jews had all converted to Christianity around 1000 years ago. > > Would they have remained an ethnically distinct minority to an extent that anti-semitism would still have emereged? Would the Holocause still have happened? The Jews of Majorca were forcibly converted to Christianity in the 1400s, becoming a group called the “Xueta” (either from the Catalan for “Jew” or the Catalan for “pork”). They exist as a distinct ethnic group in Majorca to this day, because the older Christians of Majorca wouldn’t marry or interact with them. There was a 2001 poll that showed that, even as recently as then, 30% of Majorcans wouldn’t marry a Xueta, and that 5% said that they wouldn’t even want a Xueta as a friend. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/51 "2010-05-17T21:52:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The Jews of Majorca were forcibly converted to Christianity in the 1400s, becoming a group called the “Xueta” (either from the Catalan for “Jew” or the Catalan for “pork”). They exist as a distinct ethnic group in Majorca to this day, because the older Christians of Majorca wouldn’t marry or interact with them. There was a 2001 poll that showed that, even as recently as then, 30% of Majorcans wouldn’t marry a Xueta, and that 5% said that they wouldn’t even want a Xueta as a friend. That’s very interesting - I never heard of them. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/52 "2010-05-18T10:32:10Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Egyptians are Arabs. rubbish?😃 Egypt is in Africa, not the middle east. Therefore Egyptians are African. North African to be exact. They are NOT Arabs. Less than 10% have Arabic roots. Their roots are African. The only thing they share with Arabs is a common language and a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/53 "2010-05-18T14:58:49Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > It’s worth asking what would have happened if European Jews had all converted to Christianity around 1000 years ago. > > Would they have remained an ethnically distinct minority to an extent that anti-semitism would still have emereged? Would the Holocause still have happened? > > If not, then there’s a good chance that the State of Israel would not have been founded either. Not being Jewish didn’t help the Romany avoid the Holocaust. Or the Slavs. For that matter, the various Slavs (Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Romanians, etc.) have been killing each other for centuries, as have the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans. As have any number of African tribes, etc. Religion is just an excuse, not a reason. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/54 "2010-05-18T15:14:29Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > As someone whose only allegiance is to my self, my family, my friends and my pets, I just don’t get any of this tribal-religion thang. Why anyone would want to cling to such cultural and historical excess baggage, is hard for me to understand. Well, you do live in a country, and share a language, some traditions and some culture with your fellow countrymen. National identity does influence you, even if you don’t really feel it. But it becomes more relevant when more than one national group are living close to each other, with different and often conflicting ways of life. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Egyptians are African. North African to be exact. They are NOT Arabs. Less than 10% have Arabic roots. > Their roots are African. I guess this is possible, but I’d kind of like to see a cite for it. And I’d also like to know, is their modern-day culture mostly Arabic, or does it preserve elements of pre- or non-Arabic Egyptian culture? This also serves in defining ethnicity. > [@kunilou](#): > > For that matter, the various Slavs (Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Romanians, etc.) have been killing each other for centuries It’s certainly possible that Romanians have some Slavic blood, but can they really be described as “Slavs”? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/55 "2010-05-18T17:06:39Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > It’s certainly possible that Romanians have some Slavic blood, but can they really be described as “Slavs”? If you don’t care for the term "Slavic, insert any random Central or Eastern European ethnicities. My point is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/56 "2010-05-18T18:10:24Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > This is something in my head that I’ve always believed to be true. > > But then again, I’m not exactly an expert when it comes to the Middle East. > > Just curious if there is an argument otherwise. > > Thanks. If you removed religion from the equation it would probably make the Jerusalem issue simpler because noone seems ready to compromise a whole lot on that tiny piece of land largely for religious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/57 "2010-05-18T18:13:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Macs vs PC’s. I don’t know if you all are old enough to remember the Cola Wars. It divided the nation in a way we hadn’t seen since the Disco v Rock wars of the 70’s. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/58 "2010-05-18T18:28:23Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Well, you do live in a country, and share a language, some traditions and some culture with your fellow countrymen. National identity does influence you, even if you don’t really feel it. I was born in England and have lived here for 47 years, and I’ve yet to hear anyone describe to me what English identity is. We are a bunch of mongrels that settled here after running away from whatever problems we had where we originated. A right that should be allowed to all peoples, unless we with better living conditions have a long-term aim to ensure that nobody has to leave their birthplace unless they wish to. > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > But it becomes more relevant when more than one national group are living close to each other, with different and often conflicting ways of life. You mean like the large Asian communities that live in 3 towns to the north of Manchester? Nah, what bothers me more is the stupidity of town planners in allowing these settlements to develop without any thought of integrating them into the general community. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/59 "2010-05-18T20:32:48Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m not sure I understand this. I mean, if it weren’t for religion, then there would have been no formation of the Israeli state, would there have been? I’m just not sure what the (very brief) OP means by “if there weren’t religion.” Now, or ever? Israe lwasn’t founded because Jews decided in the 1940s that “God wants us to live here.” It was founded because of a well-justified fear that Jews would always be persecuted in Europe whether they were religious or not. Were the Jews at Treblinka and Dachau released if they said, “I don’t keep kosher, I never go to the synagogue, and I don’t even believe in God”? No! Which means that even the most secular Jews had good reason to want a homeland where they could be safe from persecution. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753/60 "2010-05-18T20:41:24Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I was born in England and have lived here for 47 years, and I’ve yet to hear anyone describe to me what English identity is. We are a bunch of mongrels that settled here after running away from whatever problems we had where we originated. A right that should be allowed to all peoples, unless we with better living conditions have a long-term aim to ensure that nobody has to leave their birthplace unless they wish to. You’re lucky enough to live in a society and time where your cultural and national identity isn’t under threat. You’ve never had to worry about having an English identity and what it means to be English. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-werent-for-religion-would-the-folks-in-the-middle-east-still-be-fighting/539753.md?page=4)