# If it works in the Phillipins should Mexico try the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748 "2016-08-23T18:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/181 "2016-09-08T22:17:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It seems like a generally decent principle. Would you like to direct me to another thread where we can continue this in a different context? You know where to find it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/182 "2016-09-08T22:17:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Once again I apologize again for my obvious and gross ignorance about Salvadoran politics. Which democratically elected Salvadoran President with 90% popularity ratings turned into a dictator? Oh I see, you are aware of how ignorant you are appearing so you have to move the goal post. My point was about people that gained power democratically and then used electoral fraud to keep it. In El Salvador the military found a way to get around term limits (one president, one 5 year term) by putting a military candidate and then another one from the same group for decades, the first one in 1962 actually made a coup and was selected by the conservative party of then and while there are doubts about the elections then he won then and the military continued to put their members in rotation and there was a good chunk of the people that supported them back then. It all unraveled when the 70’s came by and people demanded change, there was also then the start of election observers that did began to report on the growing fraud the military had to do to keep power. It ended in the 80’s when the last fraud in 1977 became so blatant that it convinced many to revolt. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > When did I say we should dismiss history as fantasy? You just haven’t made the case AFAICT that this particular president who seems wildly popular in the Philippines will turn into a dictator. You did not dismiss it as fantasy, me and others are just saying that is what you are doing. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So the answer to the drug problem in the Philippines is to decriminalize crystal meth? You sure that’s gonna work? As others showed, it is working in many places and with less people killed or arrested, the key is to prevent criminals from gaining so much money and power to corrupt governments. https://www.youtube.com/embed/ao8L-0nSYzg?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=PLFs4vir_WsTySi9F8v5pvCi6zQj7Cwneu ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/183 "2016-09-08T23:32:27Z")
Incidentally the previous short video from “In A Nutshell” I linked to was not seen completely because this was clearly missed by **Damuri Ajashi** : https://www.youtube.com/embed/wJUXLqNHCaI?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=PLFs4vir_WsTySi9F8v5pvCi6zQj7Cwneu > [@](#): > > (4:35) In the 1980s, Switzerland experienced a public health crisis related to heroin use. > HIV rates skyrocketed and street crime became a problem. Swiss authorities tried a new strategy: harm reduction. They opened free heroin maintenance centers, where addicts would be treated and stabilized. > > Here, people would be given free heroin of high quality, they would get clean needles and have access to safe injection rooms, showers, beds, and medical supervision. Social workers help them find housing and deal with other problems in their lives. > > The results were a sharp drop in drug-related crime and two thirds of the people in the centers got regular jobs, because now they could focus on getting better insetad of financing their addiction. Today, over 70% of all heroin addicts in Switzerland receive treatment. HIV infections have dropped drastically. Deaths from heroin overdoses have dropped by 50%. And drug-related street sex work and crime has been reduced enormously. > > So there are methods that are not only way cheaper, but also actually work, instead of creating more problems. Drug prohibition led to a system that bulldozes human rights, costs vasts sums of money, and creates a lot of human misery, all in pursuit of an unobtainable goal. The more likely outcome of what Duterte is doing will be more corruption and death as he is only following a path that is in reality less effective than other solutions. Regardless of how popular his reprehensible plan is. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/184 "2016-09-09T05:11:32Z")
Plus, getting your drugs legally reduces the cool factor enormously. Going to a clean place with hospital-green walls and having someone in a white coat making sure you don’t have abscesses is not ma-cho, it’s nothing worth struttin’ and cockledoodlin’ about. So, it reduces entry. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/185 "2016-09-09T09:22:51Z")
When I contemplate the idea of attempting to destroy any ill-defined group, I’m inclined to think of this quote: > [@](#): > > “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” > ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago But as his statement implies, it is not so simple. Even if you could define the “evil” in society by their involvement in drugs, there’s never even a bright line on who needs to be incarcerated forever, much less murdered in the street. The only criteria where this sort of stupid idea “works” is if your objective is a body count. That’s not even a way to win a war, much less solve a social problem. Even a war isn’t really a free-for-all where you can simply say “enemy!” and shoot anyone you want. It’s easier to get away with that kind of behavior, but you’ve still got more chance of being prosecuted for settling a personal hash under cover of war than you seem to have under the Duterte regime. And really, if I were a drug dealer or user under such a regime, I’d immediately start working on a plot to kill as many of the supporters of said regime as I could before they got their hands on me, preferably while framing them as a drug dealer or user. The line has been drawn, why wait for them to come to me? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/186 "2016-09-09T15:15:27Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Well, that’s kinda the problem with this whole situation. You keeps saying “if it works” but it’s very difficult to know what is going on when you have extrajudicial killings. You’re hypothetical is based on being able to determine success but you haven’t been able to articulate how we would know that. Well there are plenty of ways. Watch what happens to the number of drug overdoses over a few years. Watch what happens to the murder rate over a few years. > [@](#): > > So, back to square one. How do we know if the extrajudicial killings in the Philippines works to control the drug violence and how do we measure whether is causing more or less damage over the long run than the problem it’s trying to solve? You measure it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/187 "2016-09-09T15:16:33Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > So is your scenario a hypothetical future? Yes, this is a hypothetical based on the assumption that this actually works to reduce drug violence. It is not an argument that this is actually working, its too early to tell. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/188 "2016-09-09T17:36:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city’s afraid of me. I’ve seen its true face. “What happened to the Filipino Dream? It came true. You’re looking at it.” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/189 "2016-09-09T17:52:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Oh I see, you are aware of how ignorant you are appearing so you have to move the goal post. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > My point was about people that gained power democratically and then used electoral fraud to keep it. No, your point was that this happens A LOT. It happens frequently enough that we can assume that this guy with 90% approval rate will do it and therefore we can treat him like he would even though he has done nothing to indicate he would be a dictator. > [@](#): > > In El Salvador the military found a way to get around term limits (one president, one 5 year term) by putting a military candidate and then another one from the same group for decades, the first one in 1962 actually made a coup and was selected by the conservative party of then and while there are doubts about the elections then he won then and the military continued to put their members in rotation and there was a good chunk of the people that supported them back then. I was born in a country with a similar history. South Korea had a long period of military dictatorship but you can’t really say that those Presidents were democratically elected if they got into power via coup and they had shady elections. Dutarte has a 90% approval rating. Not really the same thing at all. So NOT actually democratically elected more like military coups followed by military dictatorships, and nothing close to 90% approval ratings. > [@](#): > > It all unraveled when the 70’s came by and people demanded change, there was also then the start of election observers that did began to report on the growing fraud the military had to do to keep power. > > It ended in the 80’s when the last fraud in 1977 became so blatant that it convinced many to revolt. So it started off undemocratically and continued to be undemocratic. Still not seeing the analogy. > [@](#): > > You did not dismiss it as fantasy, me and others are just saying that is what you are doing. No, you misunderstand me. I think it is fantasy to analogize military coups followed by rigged election with a guy who was popularly elected with 90% approval ratings and call the guy a dictator. > [@](#): > > As others showed, it is working in many places and with less people killed or arrested, the key is to prevent criminals from gaining so much money and power to corrupt governments. Many places? You mean Switzerland? That’s not many places, that’s ONE place? I can point to one place where draconian rules and mob action dramatically reduced drug use. China used to have the world’s worst drug problem. The Communists (and their draconian policies) significantly reduced drug use in that country. > [@](#): > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg&list=PLFs4vir\_WsTySi9F8v5pvCi6zQj7Cwneu&index=3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg&list=PLFs4vir_WsTySi9F8v5pvCi6zQj7Cwneu&index=3) I think you meant to link to: https://www.youtube.com/embed/wJUXLqNHCaI?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&list=PLFs4vir_WsTySi9F8v5pvCi6zQj7Cwneu We can have a debate about drug policy. I think we might end up pretty close (especially wrt pot), but 90%+ of the people in the Philippines want to try this tactic right now. But how does that help Mexico if all the crime is due to demand in the USA? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/190 "2016-09-09T17:54:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Incidentally the previous short video from “In A Nutshell” I linked to was not seen completely because this was clearly missed by **Damuri Ajashi** : > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJUXLqNHCaI&index=2&list=PLFs4vir\_WsTySi9F8v5pvCi6zQj7Cwneu](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJUXLqNHCaI&index=2&list=PLFs4vir_WsTySi9F8v5pvCi6zQj7Cwneu) > The more likely outcome of what Duterte is doing will be more corruption and death as he is only following a path that is in reality less effective than other solutions. Regardless of how popular his reprehensible plan is. Or maybe what worked for Switzerland wont work in the Philippines. Maybe what worked in China would work better. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/191 "2016-09-09T17:56:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well there are plenty of ways. > > Watch what happens to the number of drug overdoses over a few years. > > Watch what happens to the murder rate over a few years. Again, how do you measure how many innocent people were killed during this process? And could you accomplish the same results (fewer overdoses and deaths) by legalizing and regulating drugs without the lawlessness and chaos? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/192 "2016-09-09T18:08:38Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > When I contemplate the idea of attempting to destroy any ill-defined group, I’m inclined to think of this quote: > > But as his statement implies, it is not so simple. Even if you could define the “evil” in society by their involvement in drugs, there’s never even a bright line on who needs to be incarcerated forever, much less murdered in the street. The only criteria where this sort of stupid idea “works” is if your objective is a body count. That’s not even a way to win a war, much less solve a social problem. Even a war isn’t really a free-for-all where you can simply say “enemy!” and shoot anyone you want. It’s easier to get away with that kind of behavior, but you’ve still got more chance of being prosecuted for settling a personal hash under cover of war than you seem to have under the Duterte regime. > > And really, if I were a drug dealer or user under such a regime, I’d immediately start working on a plot to kill as many of the supporters of said regime as I could before they got their hands on me, preferably while framing them as a drug dealer or user. The line has been drawn, why wait for them to come to me? Yes, even a mass murdering child rapist probably has SOME good in him. Yes, you can camouflage a personal vendetta as mob justice if the guy you kill was a drug dealer, some of the people involved in the mob justice might think that criminal killing each other is a feature not a bug. Or do you think that the cops have just stopped investigating murders? That you can kill the otherwise law abiding guy that had an affair with your wife, stick a drug dealer sign on it and have the cops and everybody in the neighborhood suddenly say “OMG, I didn’t know he was a drug dealer, well justice has prevailed” Have you ever lived in a neighborhood with drug dealers? I grew up in an immigrant neighborhood in NYC in the 1970’s, everybody including the cops knew who the drug dealers in the community were. As for the criminals killing the mob, that is not what has been happening. I mean why don’t criminals just kill all the cops? It would make their lives a lot easier. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/193 "2016-09-09T18:11:06Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Again, how do you measure how many innocent people were killed during this process? And could you accomplish the same results (fewer overdoses and deaths) by legalizing and regulating drugs without the lawlessness and chaos? The cops are still going to pursue murderers. This is not Switzerland. The lawlessness and chaos already exists. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/194 "2016-09-09T18:16:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This is not Switzerland. The lawlessness and chaos already exists. And will perpetuate if this is the plan. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/195 "2016-09-09T19:30:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes, even a mass murdering child rapist probably has SOME good in him. > > Yes, you can camouflage a personal vendetta as mob justice if the guy you kill was a drug dealer, some of the people involved in the mob justice might think that criminal killing each other is a feature not a bug. Or do you think that the cops have just stopped investigating murders? That you can kill the otherwise law abiding guy that had an affair with your wife, stick a drug dealer sign on it and have the cops and everybody in the neighborhood suddenly say “OMG, I didn’t know he was a drug dealer, well justice has prevailed” Have you ever lived in a neighborhood with drug dealers? I grew up in an immigrant neighborhood in NYC in the 1970’s, everybody including the cops knew who the drug dealers in the community were. > > As for the criminals killing the mob, that is not what has been happening. I mean why don’t criminals just kill all the cops? It would make their lives a lot easier. Without a trial, none of your assertions are actually believable. As far as I can tell, folks are getting away with murder when they can frame their victim as a drug dealer. Nobody appears to be attempting to prove them wrong in a court. So, yeah, it does look like the police aren’t investigating murders when they’re performed against a certain segment of the population, provided a packet of meth can be found at the scene. I’ve lived in places where people were “known” to be drug dealers. The common wisdom was often complete bullshit, and the people suspected of being drug dealers weren’t. How did I know? Because I bought from the actual drug dealer no one suspected, and knew the one falsely assumed to be a drug dealer. I also knew of a set of parents who were well-known to be upstanding, but were secretly drug users. So, yeah, if you had implemented this in your neighborhood, you would most likely kill a few innocents under your smug “just knowing” who the drug dealer and users were, and you wouldn’t solve your problem. I honestly can’t think of a more stupid method of law enforcement than removing the rule of law, especially WRT murder. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/196 "2016-09-09T19:39:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The cops are still going to pursue murderers. > > This is not Switzerland. The lawlessness and chaos already exists. Decriminalization worked in Portugal, too. You can throw the end of Prohibition in the US in there, as well. Various other countries have taken half-measures (such as permitting drugs for personal use, but not manufacture or sale). It’s fair to say that decriminalization has a better track record than death squads, which are the very definition of lawlessness and chaos. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/197 "2016-09-09T19:55:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > :rolleyes: > No, your point was that this happens A LOT. Again the straw men are on sale for you to use them so much, It has happened often enough that not taking that into account is foolish. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So NOT actually democratically elected more like military coups followed by military dictatorships, and nothing close to 90% approval ratings. > > So it started off undemocratically and continued to be undemocratic. Still not seeing the analogy. The point is that even then many of the few that looked at election had doubts about them but most nations did accept that those military guys were democratically elected, the evidence for using fraud came later. > **[Military dictatorship in El Salvador](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_El_Salvador_%281931%E2%80%9379%29)** > > The Salvadoran military dictatorship was the period of time in Salvadoran history where the Salvadoran Armed Forces governed the country for almost 48 years from 2 December 1931 until 15 October 1979. The authoritarian military dictatorship limited political rights throughout the country and maintained its governance through rigged elections. > The military came to power in El Salvador when the first democratically elected president, Arturo Araujo, was overthrown in a military coup d'état on 2 D... > [@](#): > > Strong economic growth in the early 1960s solidified the position of the PCN as the official party. The leadership of the party was drawn mainly from the ranks of middle-class professionals. It cannot be said to have represented the interests of that class, however. The most important constituency of the PCN was the military; without its support and cooperation, the party could not have governed. PCN governments protected the political power and social and economic perquisites that the officer corps had long enjoyed. They also preserved, at least for a time, the domestic stability required for economic growth within the prevailing elite-dominated system. Like many other Latin American militaries, the Salvadoran armed forces saw the maintenance of the societal status quo as serving their best interests. The PCN shared this conservative viewpoint and worked closely with the military leadership, seeking its advice and support on policy initiatives and political issues. In essence, under the PCN the military continued to rule El Salvador from behind the scenes. The electoral base of the PCN was found among the peasantry. Latin American peasants are on the whole a politically conservative group; in rural El Salvador, this natural tendency was reinforced by the ubiquitous presence of the armed forces. Indeed, they “worked” by using military power and repression, that still required that a good number of Salvadorans were there supporting it. And I can tell you that that was the case then, the propaganda of the cold war was very effective in convincing many that supporting the military guys was a good idea. Just about the same kind of misled support for authoritarians is what we are seeing in the Philippines today. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, you misunderstand me. I think it is fantasy to analogize military coups followed by rigged election with a guy who was popularly elected with 90% approval ratings and call the guy a dictator. And once again you only show how ignorant you are, as I pointed out the elections that took place then were not contested or declared fraudulent as the candidates then were not much different, the point is that the military guys had the support to get elected. And methods like that and systems like that were prevalent in Latin America. > [@](#): > > The coup leaders established a junta, which was referred to as the Revolutionary Council; it included three mid-level officers and two civilian professionals. The council ruled for some twenty-one months and guided the country toward comparatively open elections in March 1950. During this period, it became clear that Major Óscar Osorio was the dominant force within the junta and among the officer corps. Osorio was so sure of his support that he resigned from the junta in order to run in the elections as the candidate of the Revolutionary Party of Democratic Unification (Partido Revolucionario de Unificacion Democratica—PRUD). > > Osorio eked out a victory over Colonel José Asencio Menéndez of the Renovating Action Party (Partido Accion Renovadora—PAR) and went on to establish the PRUD as a quasi-official party modeled roughly on the Institutional Revolutionary Party (Partido Revolucionario Institucional—PRI) of Mexico. Although the PRUD enjoyed some measure of support, it was never able to replicate the broad base of the PRI, mainly because the process that produced the PRUD—the so-called Revolution of 1948—was not itself a mass movement. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Many places? You mean Switzerland? That’s not many places, that’s ONE place? Well, what you point there and with enphasis shows only to all about how ignorant you are. > **[Portugal’s Example: What Happened After It Decriminalized All Drugs, From...](https://www.vice.com/en/article/ungass-portugal-what-happened-after-decriminalization-drugs-weed-to-heroin-2/)** > > As world leaders meet to consider the future of global drug policy at UNGASS, the UN's special session on drugs, they will look to Portugal as an example of what decriminalization can accomplish. > [@](#): > > Though often narrowly assessed in reference to its decriminalization law, Portugal’s experience over the last decade and a half speaks as much to its free public health system, extensive treatment programs, and the hard to quantify trickle down effects of the legislation. In a society where drugs are less stigmatized, problem users are more likely to seek out care. Police, even if they suspect someone of using drugs, are less likely to bother them. Though at least 25 countries have introduced some form of decriminalization, Portugal’s holistic model and its use of dissuasion panels sets it apart. > [@](#): > > Portuguese health workers refer to Greece as a cautionary tale. Wracked by a budgetary crisis and the austerity conditions of repeated bailouts, Greece experienced an explosion of HIV transmission rates after budget cuts left health programs drastically underfunded. According to EU figures, only Greece and Latvia experienced larger cuts than Portugal to its public health services between the period of 2005 to 2007 and 2009 to 2012. > > And yet Portugal experienced no discernable rise in HIV transmission — the cushion effect in action. > > “Usually the focus is on the decriminalization itself, but it worked because there were other services, and the coverage increased for needle replacement, detox, therapeutic communities, and employment options for people who use drugs,” said Fuertes. “It was the combination of the law and these services that made it a success. It’s very difficult to find people in Portugal who disagree with this model.” > > In the run-up to the UN General Assembly’s special session, Goulão cautioned that countries had to consider their own domestic environments first in learning from Portugal’s experience. > > “We don’t assume that this is the silver bullet, but in my view it has been very important because it introduced coherence into the whole system,” he said. “If our responses are based in the idea that we talking about addiction, that we are talking about chronic disease, talking about a health issue — to have it out of the penal system is a clear improvement. It was really important for our society because it allowed us to drop the stigma.” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/198 "2016-09-10T00:51:55Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > And will perpetuate if this is the plan. Right. Because it was juuuust about to turn the corner. Amirite bro? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/199 "2016-09-10T00:57:11Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Without a trial, none of your assertions are actually believable. As far as I can tell, folks are getting away with murder when they can frame their victim as a drug dealer. Nobody appears to be attempting to prove them wrong in a court. So, yeah, it does look like the police aren’t investigating murders when they’re performed against a certain segment of the population, provided a packet of meth can be found at the scene. Well we’ve got the philippine police saying that they ARE invstigating murders and we’ve got you saying nuh-unh. Do you have a cite? Or do you just know in your heart that this must be true. Because the critics of these extrajudicial killings aren’t making this claim and they aren’t claiming that some significant percentage of these killings is of innocents. > [@](#): > > I’ve lived in places where people were “known” to be drug dealers. The common wisdom was often complete bullshit, and the people suspected of being drug dealers weren’t. How did I know? Because I bought from the actual drug dealer no one suspected, and knew the one falsely assumed to be a drug dealer. I also knew of a set of parents who were well-known to be upstanding, but were secretly drug users. So, yeah, if you had implemented this in your neighborhood, you would most likely kill a few innocents under your smug “just knowing” who the drug dealer and users were, and you wouldn’t solve your problem. People didn’t sell drugs on the street in your neighborhood, did they? > [@](#): > > I honestly can’t think of a more stupid method of law enforcement than removing the rule of law, especially WRT murder. You are assuming there was some significant amount of rule of law there to be removed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/200 "2016-09-10T00:59:11Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Decriminalization worked in Portugal, too. You can throw the end of Prohibition in the US in there, as well. Various other countries have taken half-measures (such as permitting drugs for personal use, but not manufacture or sale). > > It’s fair to say that decriminalization has a better track record than death squads, which are the very definition of lawlessness and chaos. Well, perhaps its not death squads but the death penalty worked pretty well in China. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=11)