# If it works in the Phillipins should Mexico try the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748 "2016-08-23T18:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/261 "2016-09-14T06:29:59Z")
Can we trust the accuracy of Chinese reports of the levels of drug use and abuse within their borders? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/262 "2016-09-14T11:10:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We will not decriminalize anything harder than pot anytime soon. If your plan revolves around decriminalization then you are going to have to pass your plan on to your children and grandchildren. I disagree, changes are in motion. The US will be among the last of its peer nations, because it is a backward right-wing throwback, but it will happen sooner than you think. > [@](#): > > Or he thinks that decriminalization is a stupid idea and he thinks he would lose all credibility with the electorate if he proposed something so stupid. If so, then _he_ is stupid. > [@](#): > > Killing drug dealers OTOH is making him very very popular. Why would he change the thing that is making him immensely popular? This gets back to what I asked earlier: is this about improving the Philippines, or not? Apparently it is not; it’s about consolidating power. > [@](#): > > Why would prices fall if most of the drugs are being sold in the US? > > See above Higher supply, no risk. In the 1980s, VCRs and foreign movies were illegal in Romania. As a result, they were very expensive (about the same price as a car), and an elaborate system of smugglers, dubbers, and bribed officials existed to bring them into the country. Meanwhile, you could buy VCRs and films in the countries the smugglers sourced them from, for MSRP. Why did a VCR cost as much as a car in Romania, and as much as a VCR elsewhere? There’s your answer. > [@](#): > > See China during the cultural revolution. They killed their way from high addict population to very low addict population. Or did they? See posts #201 & 260. > [@](#): > > Sure and if there was a death penalty associated with alcohol and a government willing to enforce it, I don’t think there would have been a lot of speak easy’s and bootleggers. History says otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/263 "2016-09-14T14:34:07Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I disagree, changes are in motion. The US will be among the last of its peer nations, because it is a backward right-wing throwback, but it will happen sooner than you think. Well, you’re entitled to your opinion but I don’t see us decriminalizing heroin, meth and cocaine anytime soon. > [@](#): > > If so, then _he_ is stupid. Or perhaps the President of the Philippines knows the Philippines and its problems better than you do. > [@](#): > > This gets back to what I asked earlier: is this about improving the Philippines, or not? Apparently it is not; it’s about consolidating power. Gaining popularity is not USUALLY what you refer to as “consolidating power” He is becoming popular because the people of the Philippines see what he is doing, they heartily approve and they think that his policies will improve their lives. By your rationale, Obama was “consolidating power” when he killed Osama bin Laden, lowered the unemployment rate and passed Obamacare. > [@](#): > > Higher supply, no risk. In the 1980s, VCRs and foreign movies were illegal in Romania. As a result, they were very expensive (about the same price as a car), and an elaborate system of smugglers, dubbers, and bribed officials existed to bring them into the country. > > Meanwhile, you could buy VCRs and films in the countries the smugglers sourced them from, for MSRP. Why did a VCR cost as much as a car in Romania, and as much as a VCR elsewhere? There’s your answer. Like I said, most of the drugs are heading to the USA, it is not intended for domestic use. > [@](#): > > Or did they? See posts #201 & 260. Yeah, they did. Its not all they did but executions were a big part of it. > [@](#): > > History says otherwise. So there was a death penalty associated with alcohol during prohibition? I must have missed that day in history class. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/264 "2016-09-14T15:10:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, you’re entitled to your opinion but I don’t see us decriminalizing heroin, meth and cocaine anytime soon. We’ll see. The ball is already rolling. > [@](#): > > Or perhaps the President of the Philippines knows the Philippines and its problems better than you do. I’m sure that he understands that many Filipinos will support an authoritarian strongman, but drug criminalization causes the same problems everywhere. It’s nothing unique to the Philippines. > [@](#): > > Gaining popularity is not USUALLY what you refer to as “consolidating power” He is becoming popular because the people of the Philippines see what he is doing, they heartily approve and they think that his policies will improve their lives. By your rationale, Obama was “consolidating power” when he killed Osama bin Laden, lowered the unemployment rate and passed Obamacare. Consolidating power, in this case, means normalizing the murder of your enemies, threatening the legislature, threatening the judiciary, and threatening the press. > [@](#): > > Like I said, most of the drugs are heading to the USA, it is not intended for domestic use. Is it not clear that I’m talking about what Mexico can do for its own benefit, not for the benefit of the US? > [@](#): > > Yeah, they did. Its not all they did but executions were a big part of it. And hey presto, it didn’t eliminate drug use, or the problems associated with it. Who could have possibly predicted that??? > [@](#): > > So there was a death penalty associated with alcohol during prohibition? I must have missed that day in history class. History shows us that there would, in fact, still be bootleggers and speakeasies. And maybe the 38 states that ratified the 21st Amendment knew the United States and its problems better than you do. If they did it, and it was popular, it must be correct, per your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/265 "2016-09-14T15:40:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, they did. Its not all they did but executions were a big part of it. [Treasure island’s Jim Hawkins (1972)] (After the captain commented how proud he was on the crown executing criminals to set an example to others so as to stop crime) Then why there are more executions now? [/JH] > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So there was a death penalty associated with alcohol during prohibition? I must have missed that day in history class. No, and history and the evidence shows this point is a red herring. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/04/30/theres-still-no-evidence-that-executions-deter-criminals/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/04/30/theres-still-no-evidence-that-executions-deter-criminals/) > [@](#): > > There’s still no evidence that executions deter criminals > [@](#): > > In fact, research suggests than criminals are mainly concerned about whether they’ll be caught, not what might happen to them afterward. > > “It’s the certainty of apprehension that’s been demonstrated consistently to be an effective deterrent, not the severity of the ensuing consequences,” said Daniel Nagin, a professor at Carnegie Mellon University. > > Nagin led a committee at the National Research Council that reviewed the evidence on executions and crime and concluded that the existing research is inconclusive. In any case, he argues, effective law enforcement is most important in preventing crime. People are more likely to break the law when they feel they can get away with it. The effect of the death penalty on alcohol and drug use elsewhere is even less. > **[Is the death penalty the answer to drug crime?](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2015/10/is-the-death-penalty-the-answer-to-drug-crime/)** > > 10 October is the World Day Against the Death Penalty, a day when people around the world speak out together to condemn this punishment for what it is – a brutal sanction that violates the right to life. More than half the world’s countries agree... > [@](#): > > Thousands of people have been executed for drug offences since 1959, when this type of crime was made punishable by death. There have been at least 829 executions from January to 20 September this year in Iran. Of these, at least 571 have been for drug-related offences. People most likely to be accused, sentenced and executed are those from disadvantaged groups like foreign nationals and poor people, including ethnic minorities. The authorities themselves have admitted that the death penalty has done little to tackle Iran’s drug problem. According to an expert at Iran’s Centre for Strategic Research, the death penalty has failed to reduce drug trafficking in the country. The point is that even in fiction that was noticed many years ago. So yes, that point about the death penalty regarding this issue was a red herring. The point about how prohibition showed how the war against addiction does lead to unintended consequences stands. > **[Unintended Consequences | Prohibition | Ken Burns | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/prohibition/unintended-consequences/)** > > The story of the rise, rule, and fall of prohibition and the entire era it encompassed. Full film now streaming. > [@](#): > > The Greatest Consequence > > The effects of Prohibition on law enforcement were also negative. The sums of money being exchanged during the dry era proved a corrupting influence in both the federal Bureau of Prohibition and at the state and local level. Police officers and Prohibition agents alike were frequently tempted by bribes or the lucrative opportunity to go into bootlegging themselves. Many stayed honest, but enough succumbed to the temptation that the stereotype of the corrupt Prohibition agent or local cop undermined public trust in law enforcement for the duration of the era. > > The growth of the illegal liquor trade under Prohibition made criminals of millions of Americans. As the decade progressed, court rooms and jails overflowed, and the legal system failed to keep up. Many defendants in prohibition cases waited over a year to be brought to trial. As the backlog of cases increased, the judicial system turned to the “plea bargain” to clear hundreds of cases at a time, making a it common practice in American jurisprudence for the first time. > > The greatest unintended consequence of Prohibition however, was the plainest to see. For over a decade, the law that was meant to foster temperance instead fostered intemperance and excess. The solution the United States had devised to address the problem of alcohol abuse had instead made the problem even worse. The statistics of the period are notoriously unreliable, but it is very clear that in many parts of the United States more people were drinking, and people were drinking more. > > There is little doubt that Prohibition failed to achieve what it set out to do, and that its unintended consequences were far more far reaching than its few benefits. The ultimate lesson is two-fold. Watch out for solutions that end up worse than the problems they set out to solve, and remember that the Constitution is no place for experiments, noble or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/266 "2016-09-14T16:34:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > We’ll see. The ball is already rolling. For pot, yes. Any sign that its bleeding into any other areas? Because a lot of people see a difference between pot and heroin. > [@](#): > > I’m sure that he understands that many Filipinos will support an authoritarian strongman, but drug criminalization causes the same problems everywhere. It’s nothing unique to the Philippines. Right, Filipinos love their dictators :smack: > [@](#): > > Consolidating power, in this case, means normalizing the murder of your enemies, threatening the legislature, threatening the judiciary, and threatening the press. And he is doing it with the support of 90%+ of the population. > [@](#): > > Is it not clear that I’m talking about what Mexico can do for its own benefit, not for the benefit of the US? I’m saying that a large part of the drug violence in Mexico is because of US demand regardless of whether or not drugs are illegal in Mexico. > [@](#): > > And hey presto, it didn’t eliminate drug use, or the problems associated with it. Who could have possibly predicted that??? Except that it did until they stopped doing it then the problems came back. > [@](#): > > History shows us that there would, in fact, still be bootleggers and speakeasies. Cite? > [@](#): > > And maybe the 38 states that ratified the 21st Amendment knew the United States and its problems better than you do. If they did it, and it was popular, it must be correct, per your reasoning. No, my reasoning is that you don’t seem to know anything about the Philippines but you seem pretty confident that something that worked on a relatively mild problem in Switzerland would work in the Philipppines. Sure enough that you are substituting your judgment for the judgment of 90% of Filipinos. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/267 "2016-09-14T16:39:03Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/268 "2016-09-14T17:00:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > For pot, yes. Any sign that its bleeding into any other areas? Because a lot of people see a difference between pot and heroin. [Here ya go.](http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/2014/04/new-pew-poll-confirms-americans-ready-end-war-drugs) > [@](#): > > Right, Filipinos love their dictators :smack: Some cultures are more comfortable with authoritarian rule than others. > [@](#): > > And he is doing it with the support of 90%+ of the population. So, they _do_ love their dictators? > [@](#): > > I’m saying that a large part of the drug violence in Mexico is because of US demand regardless of whether or not drugs are illegal in Mexico. The violence need not occur in Mexico. What would be the impetus? The US has demand for Mexican-built cars, where are the violent car cartels? > [@](#): > > Except that it did until they stopped doing it then the problems came back. Cite? > [@](#): > > Cite? **GIGObuster** already covered it in post 265. > [@](#): > > No, my reasoning is that you don’t seem to know anything about the Philippines but you seem pretty confident that something that worked on a relatively mild problem in Switzerland would work in the Philipppines. Sure enough that you are substituting your judgment for the judgment of 90% of Filipinos. Is there some principle that makes decriminalization work in country A, but not country B? Do you have _any_ thoughts on decriminalization, other than that it won’t happen? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/269 "2016-09-14T20:12:33Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > [Treasure island’s Jim Hawkins (1972)] (After the captain commented how proud he was on the crown executing criminals to set an example to others so as to stop crime) > > Then why there are more executions now? > [/JH] Wait so a quote from a work of FICTION is your cite? SERIOUSLY!?!?! > [@](#): > > No, and history and the evidence shows this point is a red herring. How does “history” show that? > [@](#): > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/04/30/theres-still-no-evidence-that-executions-deter-criminals/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/04/30/theres-still-no-evidence-that-executions-deter-criminals/) So a blog by some intern from the Huffington Post is your cite? I suppose its better than Treasure Island. I’m not saying that correlation= causation but you see how crimes rose when they got rid of the death penalty and flattened out again when they reinstituted the death penalty. If criminals didn’t really care about consequences and were really only concerned about getting caught, why would they ever leave witnesses? Why not just kill everyone they rob, rape or mug? Why leave a witness? Because the penalty for murder is a lot worse than the penalty for robbery. > [@](#): > > The effect of the death penalty on alcohol and drug use elsewhere is even less. > > [Is the death penalty the answer to drug crime? - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2015/10/is-the-death-penalty-the-answer-to-drug-crime/) The death penalty isn’t a perfect deterrent but it is pretty effective at stopping the executed drug dealer from dealing more drugs. > [@](#): > > The point is that even in fiction that was noticed many years ago. So yes, that point about the death penalty regarding this issue was a red herring. Fiction as a cite? The question of whether the death penalty has a deterrent effect is not resolved enough for you to call it a red herring. But I’m not married to the idea that the death penalty has a deterrent effect above and beyond long prison sentences. > [@](#): > > The point about how prohibition showed how the war against addiction does lead to unintended consequences stands. > > [Unintended Consequences | Prohibition | Ken Burns | PBS](http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/prohibition/unintended-consequences/) And was there an effective death penalty in place for bootleggers? No? Then how is this relevant? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/270 "2016-09-14T21:23:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wait so a quote from a work of FICTION is your cite? SERIOUSLY!?!?! :rolleyes: Of course not as you found later, that was only just to show how \*\*even \*\*great fiction gets the point that serious research shows. And what you did with the blog is called “killing the messenger” the cites and links to the research from Columbia Law School’s Jeffrey Fagan are there for all to see. Except you of course. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/271 "2016-09-14T21:31:02Z")
And the point was still missed: The point about prohibiting drugs or alcohol was that it causes unintended consequences and that point stands, the death penalty is not really a deterrent for this issue as serious researchers and the evidence pointed out, so it is the death penalty what you have failed to show as useful on dealing with this. And so it follows why is it that international human rights and many other democratic groups are criticizing Duterte. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/272 "2016-09-15T01:28:08Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > [Here ya go.](http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/2014/04/new-pew-poll-confirms-americans-ready-end-war-drugs) > **[Here Are All The Drugs Americans Want To Legalize](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/drug-legalization-poll_n_5162357)** > > Here Are All The Drugs Americans Want To Legalize One of these things is not like the others. > [@](#): > > Some cultures are more comfortable with authoritarian rule than others. > > So, they _do_ love their dictators? The President of the Philippines was ELECTED a few months ago, noone has implied that this election was a fraud. Will Hillary be a dictator next June if she makes good on her election promises? > [@](#): > > The violence need not occur in Mexico. What would be the impetus? The US has demand for Mexican-built cars, where are the violent car cartels? Are Mexican cars illegal in the USA? > [@](#): > > Cite? > **[Mao ends illegal drug use in China. – iLook China](https://ilookchina.com/tag/mao-ends-illegal-drug-use-in-china/)** > > Posts about Mao ends illegal drug use in China. written by Lloyd Lofthouse > [@](#): > > **GIGObuster** already covered it in post 265. Oh, so we DIDN’T have the death penalty during prohibition. But lets just pretend that an enforced death penalty for bootleggers wouldn’t have made a difference. > [@](#): > > Is there some principle that makes decriminalization work in country A, but not country B? Do you have _any_ thoughts on decriminalization, other than that it won’t happen? Mostly that it won’t happen. Proposing an idea that has no real chance of becoming policy is really just mental masturbation. But I also have doubts that decriminalization will work in places like El Salvador like they worked in Switzerland. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/273 "2016-09-15T01:34:05Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Of course not as you found later, that was only just to show how \*\*even \*\*great fiction gets the point that serious research shows. > > And what you did with the blog is called “killing the messenger” the cites and links to the research from Columbia Law School’s Jeffrey Fagan are there for all to see. > > Except you of course. I pointed out that the crime rate went up when the death penalty was banned and levelled off when it was reinstituted. I don’t really know if the death penalty is a deterrent, criminologists say that it is not a deterent but they are usually thinking about crimes like murder rather than largely economic crimes like drug trafficking. What I did with the blog was point out that he was presenting OPINION and his opinion as a huffington post intern doesn’t really add much weight to your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/274 "2016-09-15T01:38:06Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And the point was still missed: The point about prohibiting drugs or alcohol was that it causes unintended consequences and that point stands, the death penalty is not really a deterrent for this issue as serious researchers and the evidence pointed out, so it is the death penalty what you have failed to show as useful on dealing with this. > > And so it follows why is it that international human rights and many other democratic groups are criticizing Duterte. Sure. I agree that criminalizing ANYTHING has unintended consequences. I agree that there is a consensus that the death penalty does not provide a deterrent for things like murder. I don’t know what criminologists think about the death penalty’s ability to deter things like drug trafficking. The death penalty does a real good job at making sure that the drug traffickers stops trafficking drugs. People are free to criticize him but its a stretch to say that he is a dictator in waiting with nothing but human rights abuses to point at. I mean shit, Bush Jr. had his share of human rights abuses and he wasn’t a dictator. He left the white house when his term was over. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/275 "2016-09-15T01:43:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I pointed out that the crime rate went up when the death penalty was banned and levelled off when it was reinstituted. I don’t really know if the death penalty is a deterrent, criminologists say that it is not a deterent but they are usually thinking about crimes like murder rather than largely economic crimes like drug trafficking. > > What I did with the blog was point out that he was presenting OPINION and his opinion as a huffington post intern doesn’t really add much weight to your argument. That is indeed “killing the meesenger”, a logical fallacy. Once again anyone can see that you are not capable of dealing with the studies he cites and what the makers of the studies told Max Ehrenfreund who is a Reporter, but of course the intension is to call him a just “a blogger” as if that will discredit what he reported. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/276 "2016-09-15T01:53:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Sure. I agree that criminalizing ANYTHING has unintended consequences. I agree that there is a consensus that the death penalty does not provide a deterrent for things like murder. I don’t know what criminologists think about the death penalty’s ability to deter things like drug trafficking. > > The death penalty does a real good job at making sure that the drug traffickers stops trafficking drugs. Well duh, what your “duh” omit is that that is **also** a given, what me and many point out is that others always take the place of the ones that they are executing. Your point here is a similar argument as “if the dog is dead, there is no rabies” forgetting that rabies is still out there being transmitted by other critters. As Iran and others continue to find out. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > People are free to criticize him but its a stretch to say that he is a dictator in waiting with nothing but human rights abuses to point at. I mean shit, Bush Jr. had his share of human rights abuses and he wasn’t a dictator. He left the white house when his term was over. Since I don’t remember Bush killing drug traffickers as policy you are indeed comparing apples with dragon fruit. And I’m on the record of saying that if this was a fair world Bush the lesser should had been taken to a tribunal in The Hague. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/277 "2016-09-15T02:14:09Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Since I don’t remember Bush killing drug traffickers as policy you are indeed comparing apples with dragon fruit. And I’m on the record of saying that if this was a fair world Bush the lesser should had been taken to a tribunal in The Hague. So if Dutarte simply tortured the drug dealers and kept them in prison without a trial, you wouldn’t call him a dictator in waiting? Like i said, Bush did horrible shit too and he left the white house when his term was up. Why won’t Dutarte do the same? He is more popular than Bush ever was. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/278 "2016-09-15T02:30:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > [Here Are All The Drugs Americans Want To Legalize | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/drug-legalization-poll_n_5162357.html) > > One of these things is not like the others. Yeah, one is Pew and the other is YouGov. And even the YouGov poll found support for not jailing first-time offenders, opposition to the war on drugs, etc. Like I said, the ball is rolling. Duterte might even hasten it along, with his crimes. > [@](#): > > The President of the Philippines was ELECTED a few months ago, noone has implied that this election was a fraud. Will Hillary be a dictator next June if she makes good on her election promises? Depends on what those promises were, doesn’t it? > [@](#): > > Are Mexican cars illegal in the USA? We all remember the corruption and violence in Hungary because VCRs were illegal in Romania, don’t we? > [@](#): > > [Mao ends illegal drug use in China. | iLook China](https://ilookchina.net/tag/mao-ends-illegal-drug-use-in-china/) No measurements or data of any kind, I see. > [@](#): > > Oh, so we DIDN’T have the death penalty during prohibition. But lets just pretend that an enforced death penalty for bootleggers wouldn’t have made a difference. It’d motivate more violence and corruption from the gangs, sure. Possibly even a Pablo Escobar style campaign of terror. It certainly wouldn’t end alcohol consumption. > [@](#): > > Mostly that it won’t happen. Proposing an idea that has no real chance of becoming policy is really just mental masturbation. But I also have doubts that decriminalization will work in places like El Salvador like they worked in Switzerland. Since only death squads are being used, I guess we can only discuss how great death squads are? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/279 "2016-09-15T02:36:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So if Dutarte simply tortured the drug dealers and kept them in prison without a trial, you wouldn’t call him a dictator in waiting? Yes, I would still call him a dictator in training. The sad thing is that Duterte’s jails are torturing them too. > **[Harrowing pictures betray the brutal truth of the Philippines' war on drugs](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/filipino-philippines-prison-jail-president-rodrigo-duterte-war-on-drugs-a7164006.html)** > > 'They cannot think straight. It's so crowded. Just the slightest of movements and you bump into something or someone,' inmate says > [@](#): > > The unhygienic environment means illnesses, such as as tuberculosis, skin infections, diarrhea and sepsis are rife. Medical services are few and far between. > > Tensions between the prisoners occasionally erupt into violence and torture is also used against them. > > “Overcrowding is a major problem," Dr Simbulanas said. "As is food, cleanliness and a general lack of the facilities which make a place fit for humans.” > > The Philippines are a signatory of the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which forbids the cruel or inhuman treatment of prisoners. “Unfortunately that is not the case in many of the detention centres and jails in the Philippines,” Dr Simbulan said. > [@](#): > > The problem is rooted in a broken legal system. “If our jails are overcrowded and congested,” Dr Simbulan said, “that will also be true in our courts.” > > Aside from a lack of physical space in courtrooms, there is a shortage of judges and prosecutors to hear cases. Consequently, with just two or three hearings a year, inmates’ trials can take years, even decades. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Like i said, Bush did horrible shit too and he left the white house when his term was up. Why won’t Dutarte do the same? He is more popular than Bush ever was. :rolleyes: Lest see, what I did write was: “if this was a fair world Bush the lesser should had been taken to a tribunal in The Hague.” Dutarte deserves that and much more IMHO. And you do continue to use the fallacy of the argumentum ad populum. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/280 "2016-09-15T04:45:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yes, I would still call him a dictator in training. > > The sad thing is that Duterte’s jails are torturing them too. > > [Harrowing photos from inside Filipino jail show reality of Rodrigo Duterte's brutal war on drugs | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/filipino-philippines-prison-jail-president-rodrigo-duterte-war-on-drugs-a7164006.html) I am no fan of Duterte, but he’s only been in office for a couple of months while these inmates have in jail for years. Can’t pin this one on him; blame previous administrations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=15)