# If it works in the Phillipins should Mexico try the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748 "2016-08-23T18:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/301 "2016-09-16T17:38:04Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The jury’s out on that. Agree, and out for a long time as pointed before. That is why the point and the evidence reported before about how the death penalty does not affect the crime rate was made. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/302 "2016-09-16T18:03:05Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Actually what took place shows that you are making statements that are at odds with history. > > When an early reference to Hitler was made it was to make the point that actually getting to power using democracy does happen. So, just making sure others are aware of that because Hitler did indeed try with violence first, but he failed. Hanging only to the early failure can confuse many as the writer of the article makes a point about. Why are you so vague? Do you think we can read your mind as you write these posts? What about my post is at odds with history? Hitler had a previous history of trying to attain power undemocratically. THAT is the sort of thing you can point to and say “see, look, that guy is likely to become a dictator because he has actually tried to take power by force” I don’t know if you don’t understand wtf I am saying or I don’t understand wtf you are saying but a lot of stuff you say seem irrelevant to the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/303 "2016-09-16T18:20:49Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t know how self-selection would skew things; I merely wanted to point it out, as it’s an additional x-factor. OK. I agree its not like a gallup poll. But as you pointed out, it probably has some value. > [@](#): > > “Typically”, but not always. Plenty of dictators got into office without force, Hitler included. As I said, dictators can and often do have popular support, so Dutarte’s approval rating is irrelevant to whether or not he’s a dictator. I agree that he isn’t, but there’s certainly a danger. What do you call a dictator that has 90% approval ratings? Isn’t that just a democratically elected leader? If Hitler had 90%+ approval ratings in Germany, then as bad as he was, wasn’t he just the German leader? > [@](#): > > Obama didn’t threaten to kill judges that disagreed with him, though. [Duterte has](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37001916). A threat of violence is a use of force. Again, we’ll see how things play out. The link does not say that Duterte was threatening judges that disagreed with him. He published a list of judges, politicians and police officials that he believed were corrupt. I don’t see where he is threatening to kill people that disagree with him. I agree, it is too early to predict what will happen. > [@](#): > > By itself, no. So then what other basis would you have to call him a dictator? Or are you saying that you agree that GIGO is wrong? > [@](#): > > This goes to why black markets have violence in the first place: lack of access to courts, incredibly high stakes for failure, and the need to corrupt law enforcement in order to operate. There’s a reason black markets (drugs, prostitution, etc) are far more violent than regular markets. > > I’ll settle for a decrease, for the purpose of discussion. OK. As long as you acknowledge that there can also be unintended consequences of decriminalizing drugs as well. > [@](#): > > That’s what harm reduction policies are aimed at fixing. Instead of putting resources into jailing drug/alcohol/whatever users and dealers, resources are put into mitigating the harmful effects, many of which stem from prohibition itself. Details of the Swiss and Portugese programs were linked to earlier, feel free to peruse. And why can’t many of those harm reduction policies be used in conjunction with criminalization? What is it that we can do about drunk driving in a legal alcohol world that we cannot do in a prohibition world? > [@](#): > > That’s not what happened in Switzerland or Portugal, though, those social ills decreased, because prohibition makes them worse. But Prohibition is part of the Swiss model, isn’t it: > **[Drug policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy#Switzerland)** > > A drug policy is the policy regarding the control and regulation of psychoactive substances (commonly referred to as drugs), particularly those that are addictive or cause physical and mental dependence. While drug policies are generally implemented by governments, entities at all levels (from international organisations, national or local government, administrations, or public places) may have specific policies related to drugs. > Drug policies are usually aimed at combatting drug addiction or... “The national drug policy of Switzerland was developed in the early 1990s and comprises the four elements of prevention, therapy, harm reduction and \*\*\* prohibition \*\*\*” > [@](#): > > In my lifetime (I’m 31)? 90%. There’s some grey area, of course; if you can’t go to prison for drug use, but you’re court-mandated to attend treatment, is that decriminalization? You can see these sorts of questions in the HuffPo/YouGov poll you linked to; people didn’t want to legalize harder drugs, but they also opposed jail time for drug use. AFAICT, your explanation of how decriminialization reduces criminal violence is not predicated on decriminalizing use so much as it depends on decriminalizing trafficking. If selling is still illegal, the drug dealers STILL don’t have access to the judicial system to settle disputes. > [@](#): > > The jury’s out on that. So how about we wait and see instead of immediately announcing that its going to fail and labeling Dutarte a dictator? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/304 "2016-09-16T18:49:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why are you so vague? Do you think we can read your mind as you write these posts? > > What about my post is at odds with history? > > Hitler had a previous history of trying to attain power undemocratically. THAT is the sort of thing you can point to and say “see, look, that guy is likely to become a dictator because he has actually tried to take power by force” > > I don’t know if you don’t understand wtf I am saying or I don’t understand wtf you are saying but a lot of stuff you say seem irrelevant to the conversation. There is a method to the madness, as in reality your affirmations are the ones that are omitting information that undermines your premises. I make the point that many times your statements do omit what was pointed out before. The point I made was that democracy does not prevent someone from becoming a dictator. And on the issue of Duterte not showing any abuse of his powers in the past, that is not the complete picture. The example of Duterte glossing over the many that died while he was major of Davao was mentioned already. He has also defended the killings and even made statements to say that he knows who the perpetrators were. To that we have to add what former guys that were involved with the death squads are telling about Duterte in court: > **[Philippines: Independent Investigation of Duterte Needed](https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/09/16/philippines-independent-investigation-duterte-needed)** > > (New York, September 16, 2016) – The Philippine government should invite an independent investigation involving the United Nations into allegations of direct involvement by President Rodrigo Duterte in extrajudicial killings, Human Rights Watch said... > [@](#): > > (New York) – The Philippine government should invite an independent investigation involving the United Nations into allegations of direct involvement by President Rodrigo Duterte in extrajudicial killings, Human Rights Watch said today. On September 15, 2016, an admitted former “hit man,” Edgar Matobato, testified at a Philippine Senate hearing about the alleged killings of about 1,000 people in Davao City involving Duterte, who was the city’s mayor for more than two decades. > > “The detailed testimony from a ‘death squad’ member that then-Mayor Duterte was personally involved in killings and ordered others are very serious allegations that require an independent investigation,” said Brad Adams, Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “President Duterte can’t be expected to investigate himself, so it is crucial that the United Nations is called in to lead such an effort. Otherwise, Filipinos may never know if the president was directly responsible for extrajudicial killings.” > [@](#): > > In 2009, Human Rights Watch published “‘You Can Die Any Time’: Death Squad Killings in Mindanao,” which details the involvement of police and local government officials in targeted death squad killings in Davao City during Duterte’s time as mayor. Another Human Rights Watch report from 2014, “‘One Shot to the Head’: Death Squad Killings in Tagum City, Philippines,” documents police involvement in what appeared to be a copycat policy of extrajudicial killings in a city close to Davao City. [http://tucp.org.ph/2009/08/un-committee-urged-to-monitor-killings-by-davao-death-squads/](http://tucp.org.ph/2009/08/un-committee-urged-to-monitor-killings-by-davao-death-squads/) > [@](#): > > Based on extensive interviews, including with those who have insider knowledge of the Davao Death Squad, Human Rights Watch has concluded that police officers and local government officials are involved in the decade-long killing spree that has plagued Davao City. > > “The long-time mayor of Davao City, Rodrigo Duterte, has failed to condemn or take serious efforts to prevent these killings. Rather, his public comments, portraying an image of being tough on crime at all costs, indicate his support for the Davao Death Squad,” the group added. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/305 "2016-09-16T19:01:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK. I agree its not like a gallup poll. But as you pointed out, it probably has some value. Agreed. > [@](#): > > What do you call a dictator that has 90% approval ratings? A dictator. > [@](#): > > Isn’t that just a democratically elected leader? If Hitler had 90%+ approval ratings in Germany, then as bad as he was, wasn’t he just the German leader? The dictatorship is in the dictating. If there’s one leader who rules arbitrarily by his or her whims, then the nation is a dictatorship. If the leader’s whims happen to correlate to the popular will, then it’s a popular dictatorship. It can’t be called a democracy when all power is vested in one person, who may or may not adopt popular policies. Think of it this way: you can define a dictatorship by the features it lacks: rule of law, legitimate elections, and (aboveground) opposition parties, to name 3. > [@](#): > > The link does not say that Duterte was threatening judges that disagreed with him. He published a list of judges, politicians and police officials that he believed were corrupt. I don’t see where he is threatening to kill people that disagree with him. That was poor phrasing on my part, I was trying to draw a connection to your point about Obama wagging his finger at the Supreme Court. Rephrase: Obama may criticize the Supreme Court, but he’s never demanded that they step down under pain of death. > [@](#): > > I agree, it is too early to predict what will happen. Oh, I can predict, just not with much certainty. > [@](#): > > So then what other basis would you have to call him a dictator? Or are you saying that you agree that GIGO is wrong? Ignoring the law, particularly when it creates a chilling effect on opposition to you, if a big red flag. And that’s all there is at present, red flags. When and if Duterte goes further down the path, we can reassess. I understand **GIGO** ’s point to be broadly similar (eg, Duterte is acting like a dictator-in-waiting), but if I’m mistaken I request clarification. > [@](#): > > OK. As long as you acknowledge that there can also be unintended consequences of decriminalizing drugs as well. Can be? Sure. But based on the examples we have, it’s very solidly a net gain. > [@](#): > > And why can’t many of those harm reduction policies be used in conjunction with criminalization? What is it that we can do about drunk driving in a legal alcohol world that we cannot do in a prohibition world? Because prohibition creates a [powerful stigma](https://www.hri.global/contents/721) surrounding drug addiction. Instead of sick people who need treatment, addicts are considered immoral degenerates who take drugs out of stupidity and hedonism, and who ought to be locked up. Not surprisingly, this deters people from seeking treatment. They’re afraid of ending up in prison, afraid of having their addiction known to all, have to resort to impure street drugs, and so forth. I mean, how can you have safe injection sites, when injecting the drugs is illegal? > [@](#): > > But Prohibition is part of the Swiss model, isn’t it: > > [Drug policy - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy#Switzerland) > > “The national drug policy of Switzerland was developed in the early 1990s and comprises the four elements of prevention, therapy, harm reduction and \*\*\* prohibition \*\*\*” Yes and no; I would call Switzerland “partially” decriminalized, but it’s still a hell of a success story. In Switzerland, you can get heroin (and methadone) at treatment centers, by prescription. That’s another way to fight the problems of drug cartels: outcompete them by giving away a purer product, for free. They’ve focused on the use side, and it’s working. > [@](#): > > AFAICT, your explanation of how decriminialization reduces criminal violence is not predicated on decriminalizing use so much as it depends on decriminalizing trafficking. If selling is still illegal, the drug dealers STILL don’t have access to the judicial system to settle disputes. You can either make selling legal, give drugs away for free to addicts in treatment, or probably other ideas that haven’t been tried yet. > [@](#): > > So how about we wait and see instead of immediately announcing that its going to fail and labeling Dutarte a dictator? Because a) extrajudicial murder is wrong in and of itself (I’m a deontologist, not a utilitarian), and b) I put the odds of success quite low. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/306 "2016-09-16T19:19:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What do you call a dictator that has 90% approval ratings? Isn’t that just a democratically elected leader? If Hitler had 90%+ approval ratings in Germany, then as bad as he was, wasn’t he just the German leader? It is still called a dictator, glad we figured that out. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So how about we wait and see instead of immediately announcing that its going to fail and labeling Dutarte a dictator? Still with the straw men, I don’t think we did say that he is a dictator, only that the field has been prepared for him to become one. And he has shown already to support violent methods to get what he wants. > **[Philippines President 'ordered death squads to bomb mosques'](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/philippines-president-rodrigo-duterte-ordered-death-squads-bomb-mosques-kill-muslims-political-rivals-and-criminals-a7308951.html)** > > Former vigilante tells Senate his gang killed 1,000 people while Mr Duterte was mayor of Davao > [@](#): > > Phelim Kine, deputy director of the group’s Asia division, said Mr Duterte’s apparent endorsement of extrajudicial killings must be challenged. > > “Duterte’s boastful brand of violent impunity should be a path to prosecution, not a platform for political office,” he added. > > “Until the government adopts a zero tolerance attitude toward public officials who publicly endorse extrajudicial killings as an acceptable approach to governance, Duterte and others like him will pose a grave danger to the safety of the citizens they are elected to protect.” Once again, it is clear that due process is not liked by dictators, wanna be dictators and autocrats. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/307 "2016-09-16T19:34:32Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ignoring the law, particularly when it creates a chilling effect on opposition to you, if a big red flag. And that’s all there is at present, red flags. When and if Duterte goes further down the path, we can reassess. > > I understand **GIGO** ’s point to be broadly similar (eg, Duterte is acting like a dictator-in-waiting), but if I’m mistaken I request clarification. Nope, you are correct. The point I was making with the high approbal rates shown by Duterte and Marcos before was that such support is what makes dictators come about, and to also maintain power. Rather than red flags I see disrecpet to civil rights as like the sides on the fire triangle that one sees in school. That one were if one part of it is missing (oxigen, combustible material, heath source) then there is no fire. I do see popularity as one piece that dictators, but specially the wanna be ones that use democracy employ to gain power also. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/308 "2016-09-16T19:58:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > There is a method to the madness, as in reality your affirmations are the ones that are omitting information that undermines your premises. I make the point that many times your statements do omit what was pointed out before. > > The point I made was that democracy does not prevent someone from becoming a dictator. I never said it did but its certainly not a PREDICTOR of dictatorship. > [@](#): > > And on the issue of Duterte not showing any abuse of his powers in the past, that is not the complete picture. The example of Duterte glossing over the many that died while he was major of Davao was mentioned already. He has also defended the killings and even made statements to say that he knows who the perpetrators were. To that we have to add what former guys that were involved with the death squads are telling about Duterte in court: > > [Philippines: Independent Investigation of Duterte Needed | Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/09/16/philippines-independent-investigation-duterte-needed) > > [http://tucp.org.ph/2009/08/un-committee-urged-to-monitor-killings-by-davao-death-squads/](http://tucp.org.ph/2009/08/un-committee-urged-to-monitor-killings-by-davao-death-squads/) Not the complete picture? Which of those allegations do you think I have been withholding or denying. I am pretty sure that I admitted that Dutarte supports the extrajudicial killing of drug dealers VERY early in the thread, like in the OP. So what’s your point? Why is that likely to lead to dictatorship? Do you think he is a dictator right now? Do you have any proof or evidence that he will become one? Aren’t you just calling him a dictator because you just don’t like his draconian policies on drugs? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/309 "2016-09-16T20:24:16Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > A dictator. > > The dictatorship is in the dictating. If there’s one leader who rules arbitrarily by his or her whims, then the nation is a dictatorship. If the leader’s whims happen to correlate to the popular will, then it’s a popular dictatorship. It can’t be called a democracy when all power is vested in one person, who may or may not adopt popular policies. > > Think of it this way: you can define a dictatorship by the features it lacks: rule of law, legitimate elections, and (aboveground) opposition parties, to name 3. OK so you are saying that a benevolent dictatorship is still a dictatorship. Is THAT what you think GIGO was referring to? Some sort of popular benevolent dictator? Or was he trying to cast this guy in the same role as the military juntas of El Salvador and latin American countries? > [@](#): > > That was poor phrasing on my part, I was trying to draw a connection to your point about Obama wagging his finger at the Supreme Court. > > Rephrase: Obama may criticize the Supreme Court, but he’s never demanded that they step down under pain of death. But its not for criticizing him or disagreeing with him, right? I mean there are several politicians that are criticizing him and he is throwing some dirt at them but he isn’t ordering them to resign under pain of death, is he? > [@](#): > > Oh, I can predict, just not with much certainty. Well, its perfectly reasonable to be critical of him. He is absolutely violating human rights and disregarding rule of law. But so far he seems to be respecting democracy and responding to political and popular pressure. > [@](#): > > Ignoring the law, particularly when it creates a chilling effect on opposition to you, if a big red flag. And that’s all there is at present, red flags. When and if Duterte goes further down the path, we can reassess. There seems to be plenty of opposition to Duterte. Much of it based on outrage at this human rights abuses and some of it based on the fact that many people in power in the Philippines are corrupt. > [@](#): > > I understand **GIGO** ’s point to be broadly similar (eg, Duterte is acting like a dictator-in-waiting), but if I’m mistaken I request clarification. GIGO seems to be expressing significantly more certainty than you about Duterte’s eventual dictatorship. > [@](#): > > Can be? Sure. But based on the examples we have, it’s very solidly a net gain. > > Because prohibition creates a [powerful stigma](https://www.hri.global/contents/721) surrounding drug addiction. Instead of sick people who need treatment, addicts are considered immoral degenerates who take drugs out of stupidity and hedonism, and who ought to be locked up. Not surprisingly, this deters people from seeking treatment. They’re afraid of ending up in prison, afraid of having their addiction known to all, have to resort to impure street drugs, and so forth. > > I mean, how can you have safe injection sites, when injecting the drugs is illegal? I was using alcohol for a reason. The social effects of alcohol are easier to see and relate to. What could we do to mitigate drunk driving in a alcohol permissive society that we couldn’t do in a prohibitionist society? > [@](#): > > Yes and no; I would call Switzerland “partially” decriminalized, but it’s still a hell of a success story. In Switzerland, you can get heroin (and methadone) at treatment centers, by prescription. That’s another way to fight the problems of drug cartels: outcompete them by giving away a purer product, for free. They’ve focused on the use side, and it’s working. Yeah, sure its a great story but its still illegal to traffick heroin, right? > [@](#): > > You can either make selling legal, give drugs away for free to addicts in treatment, or probably other ideas that haven’t been tried yet. Yeah those all sound like good ideas that someone somewhere should try. The Philipinnes would like to try killing the drug dealers and see how that works. > [@](#): > > Because a) extrajudicial murder is wrong in and of itself (I’m a deontologist, not a utilitarian), and b) I put the odds of success quite low. I’m more of a utilitarian with some basic moral underpinning that do not prevent me from considering killing drug cartels that have corrupted the fabric of society. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/310 "2016-09-16T20:26:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, you are correct. The point I was making with the high approbal rates shown by Duterte and Marcos before was that such support is what makes dictators come about, and to also maintain power. Once again, when did Marcos enjoy such high approval rates? > [@](#): > > Rather than red flags I see disrecpet to civil rights as like the sides on the fire triangle that one sees in school. That one were if one part of it is missing (oxigen, combustible material, heath source) then there is no fire. I do see popularity as one piece that dictators, but specially the wanna be ones that use democracy employ to gain power also. ISTM that most dictators are not popularly elected. They mostly take power by force. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/311 "2016-09-16T20:35:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I never said it did but its certainly not a PREDICTOR of dictatorship. > > Not the complete picture? Which of those allegations do you think I have been withholding or denying. I am pretty sure that I admitted that Dutarte supports the extrajudicial killing of drug dealers VERY early in the thread, like in the OP. So what’s your point? Why is that likely to lead to dictatorship? Remember, you have been saying that your point “is that the attempted coup by Hitler is something that might have indicated his despotic tendencies. There is no similar example of despotic tendencies by Dutarte. Human rights abuses, sure. Tyranny, not yet.” The point here is that besides not being a very coherent statement (Really, Human right abuses are not what a despot or a tyrant does?) The reality is that Duterte has let all know about what will he do with due process and he has admitted to not caring in the past already. The latest and past reports shows that Duterte was not just a supporter of those despotic measures, but that he was also involved with them indeed. The point is that Duterte already walked like a dictator, quacked like a dictator and looked like dictator. And he is doing now things that dictators and despots approve of. All I can say is that he is getting much warmer and the only thing left is to see if the other governmental powers can stand up to him. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/312 "2016-09-16T20:51:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Once again, when did Marcos enjoy such high approval rates? Already shown by the number of voters in the Philippines that supported him in the past. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > ISTM that most dictators are not popularly elected. They mostly take power by force. It is clear that you are forgot what we are talking about. This issue was already granted by you. From an early post: > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why do you think that I was unaware that dictators are frequently elected at first? What did I say that made it appear that I thought that dictators were never popularly elected? The point indeed stands, dictatorship can follow popularity, or be popular after the dictator has been pointed at as being one by many others. And in the cases that dictatorship followed there were frequent hints and evidence of what the future dictators had in mind before they were elected. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/313 "2016-09-17T02:46:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The point is that Duterte already walked like a dictator, quacked like a dictator and looked like dictator. And he is doing now things that dictators and despots approve of. All I can say is that he is getting much warmer and the only thing left is to see if the other governmental powers can stand up to him. As long as he can be voted out in the next election, he is not a dictator. Do you have any evidence that he would not leave office if he was voted out? Or are you just assuming he would forcibly retain power because he promised to kill drug dealers and he actually delivered on that promise? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/314 "2016-09-17T02:51:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Already shown by the number of voters in the Philippines that supported him in the past. Yeah, noone believes those numbers from the marcos 1981 election. Like I said, he could have won with 188% of the vote instead of 88% of the vote. > [@](#): > > It is clear that you are forgot what we are talking about. This issue was already granted by you. From an early post: Yeah, those two statements are not contradictory. Something can be frequent even if something else is more frequent. Tell you what. For every dictator that was initially democratically elected into office, I will name one that took power by force and I bet you you will run out of dictators before I do, even though you will be able to name several dictators. > [@](#): > > The point indeed stands, dictatorship can follow popularity, or be popular after the dictator has been pointed at as being one by many others. And in the cases that dictatorship followed there were frequent hints and evidence of what the future dictators had in mind before they were elected. And without more, all you have is rank speculation. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/315 "2016-09-17T05:12:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > As long as he can be voted out in the next election, he is not a dictator. Do you have any evidence that he would not leave office if he was voted out? Or are you just assuming he would forcibly retain power because he promised to kill drug dealers and he actually delivered on that promise? Meh, no substance left in that reply. Stop with the straw men. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/316 "2016-09-19T17:23:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK so you are saying that a benevolent dictatorship is still a dictatorship. > > Is THAT what you think GIGO was referring to? Some sort of popular benevolent dictator? Or was he trying to cast this guy in the same role as the military juntas of El Salvador and latin American countries? Popular but not benevolent. > [@](#): > > But its not for criticizing him or disagreeing with him, right? > > I mean there are several politicians that are criticizing him and he is throwing some dirt at them but he isn’t ordering them to resign under pain of death, is he? The fact that he’s ordering anyone to resign under pain of death is a problem. > [@](#): > > I was using alcohol for a reason. The social effects of alcohol are easier to see and relate to. What could we do to mitigate drunk driving in a alcohol permissive society that we couldn’t do in a prohibitionist society? Offer treatment. > [@](#): > > Yeah, sure its a great story but its still illegal to traffick heroin, right? It’s more accurate to say that the state has a monopoly on trafficking heroin. > [@](#): > > Yeah those all sound like good ideas that someone somewhere should try. The Philipinnes would like to try killing the drug dealers and see how that works. And I would like to criticize that choice, so I have been. > [@](#): > > I’m more of a utilitarian with some basic moral underpinning that do not prevent me from considering killing drug cartels that have corrupted the fabric of society. And that’s why I’m not a utilitarian: you can talk yourself into any moral wrong being acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/317 "2016-09-19T18:16:53Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > And I would like to criticize that choice, so I have been. But you have not been saying that Duterte is a dictator or that history proves that he is very likely o become one. Democracy can sometimes lead to things that you don’t like but until this guy does something to prevent the regular operation of their democracy I don’t think you can call him a dictator. > [@](#): > > And that’s why I’m not a utilitarian: you can talk yourself into any moral wrong being acceptable. Well, that’s not quite true. First you have to at least satisfy he utilitarian aspect of things. And if that is where you stop then you are indeed just utilitarian. If you can tell yourself that we should be willing to give up some efficiency in the name of equity and fairness, then I would call that an enlightened utilitarian. The recognition that things that may seem to have immediate net positive impacts might in fact be negative over the long run. In my world view, all morality has an element of utilitarianism to it. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/318 "2016-09-19T19:56:38Z")
Damuri, Even taking the issue of dictatorship off the table. Can you give one historical example where the use of extra judicial death squads turned out to be a good thing in retrospect? For the life of me I can’t. I suppose its possible that the Philippines in the year 2016 is a unique time and place in the history of civilization where it is a good idea, but that seems really doubtful. At the time, lynching seemed like a good way to handle the “rash of black men raping white women”, no it didn’t lead to a dictatorship but in retrospect it was not a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/319 "2016-09-19T20:24:25Z")
I too am curious about historical examples of death squads used judiciously. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/320 "2016-09-20T14:42:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > But you have not been saying that Duterte is a dictator or that history proves that he is very likely o become one. > > Democracy can sometimes lead to things that you don’t like but until this guy does something to prevent the regular operation of their democracy I don’t think you can call him a dictator. I’d co-sign “likely”, maybe not “very likely”. > [@](#): > > Well, that’s not quite true. > > First you have to at least satisfy he utilitarian aspect of things. And if that is where you stop then you are indeed just utilitarian. If you can tell yourself that we should be willing to give up some efficiency in the name of equity and fairness, then I would call that an enlightened utilitarian. The recognition that things that may seem to have immediate net positive impacts might in fact be negative over the long run. In my world view, all morality has an element of utilitarianism to it. I can’t approve of using people as a means, nor doing wrong in the hope that it’ll somehow make things better. People are ends in themselves, and all actions must be morally right to be justifiable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=17)