# If it works in the Phillipins should Mexico try the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748 "2016-08-23T18:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/321 "2016-09-20T15:34:07Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Damuri, > > Even taking the issue of dictatorship off the table. Can you give one historical example where the use of extra judicial death squads turned out to be a good thing in retrospect? For the life of me I can’t. I suppose its possible that the Philippines in the year 2016 is a unique time and place in the history of civilization where it is a good idea, but that seems really doubtful. At the time, lynching seemed like a good way to handle the “rash of black men raping white women”, no it didn’t lead to a dictatorship but in retrospect it was not a good idea. There are plenty of horrible examples of extrajudicial killings and vigilantism. But unless you are saying that all extrajudicial killings are committed by the Ku Klux Klan, the Khmer Rouge and the brownshirts, there are certainly examples of vigilantism that aren’t horrible (even if they might not universally be considered good). > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I too am curious about historical examples of death squads used judiciously. Bearing in mind that these extrajudicial killings are not all the result of death squads. Many of them are police and private citizens. There might be as many vigilantes as there are death squads. I don’t know if you would say this turned out well but some people don’t find it objectionable when extrajudicial killings are used to reach criminals who are beyond the reach of justice > **[Mossad assassinations following the Munich massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wrath_of_God)** > > Operation Bayonet (Hebrew: מבצע זעם האל, romanized: Mivtza Za'am Ha'el, lit. 'Operation Wrath of God') was a covert operation directed by Mossad to assassinate individuals they accused of being involved in the 1972 Munich massacre. The targets were members of the Palestinian armed militant group Black September and operatives of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO). Authorised by Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir in the autumn of 1972, the operation is believed to have continued for ove... What would you call the special forces teams being sent to kill the leaders of terrorist organizations? Like Osama bin Laden? There was no real attempt to bring him back alive for a trial. Obama ordered the murder of a guy who never got his day in court. He has ordered the murder of several people who never had their day in court since then. These are not guys that are being killed on the field of battle, they are guys that are identified as enemies, located and then bombed by drones or killed by special forces. Dutarte, to the extent he is targeting people to be killed, seems to be targeting drug dealers. Some vigilante groups were born to protect citizens in an era of chaos > **[Big Swords Society](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Swords_Society)** > > The Big Swords Society (Chinese: 大刀會; pinyin: Dàdāo Huì) or Great Knife Society was a traditional peasant group most noted for the killing of two German Catholic missionaries at the Juye Incident in 1897 at Zhang Jia Village where the missionaries were ambushed in their sleep by about 30 armed men. The Big Swords Society was widespread in North China during the Qing Dynasty and noted for its reckless courage. Rather than one large overarching organization, the Big Swords were local groups o The S... > **[Bakassi Boys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakassi_Boys)** > > The Bakassi Boys were a group of Nigerian youth vigilantes who operated majorly in the south-eastern and south-southern regions of Nigeria, between 1998 and 2006. Activities of the vigilante group included targeting perpetrators of armed robberies, ritual killings, kidnapping, such as in the case of Eddy Nawgu, an alleged prophet and occultist whom they killed and beheaded. > The Bakassi Boys were usually armed with machetes and guns, and wear an array of black magic artifacts and Juju around thei... > **[Grupos de autodefensa comunitaria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupos_de_Autodefensa_Comunitaria)** > > Grupos de autodefensas (self-defenders groups) or Policía Comunitaria (Community Police) or Policía Popular (People's Police) are vigilante self-defense groups that arose in the Gulf of Mexico and South Mexico regions between 2012 and 2013. The Mexican government has attempted to monitor and absorb these groups into the federal government to act as Rural Police in order to avoid clashes between the paramilitaries and the Mexican Armed Forces itself. > The presidential administration of Felipe Cald... ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/322 "2016-09-20T15:36:39Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’d co-sign “likely”, maybe not “very likely”. > > I can’t approve of using people as a means, nor doing wrong in the hope that it’ll somehow make things better. People are ends in themselves, and all actions must be morally right to be justifiable. So you would never throw someone in front of the trolley car? OK but that is not a universal sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/323 "2016-09-20T15:56:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you would never throw someone in front of the trolley car? OK but that is not a universal sentiment. Nope, sure wouldn’t. I know others disagree; that’s why we have things like vigilante death squads. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/324 "2016-09-20T16:36:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Bearing in mind that these extrajudicial killings are not all the result of death squads. Many of them are police and private citizens. There might be as many vigilantes as there are death squads. Indeed. Almost all that you mentioned are not death squads. It is clear that you were forced to add vigilantes and self defense groups that are more in the open about who they are. When they are not they are just plain death squads. > **[Death squad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_squad)** > > A death squad is an armed group whose primary activity is carrying out extrajudicial killings, massacres, or enforced disappearances as part of political repression, genocide, ethnic cleansing, or revolutionary terror. Except in rare cases in which they are formed by an insurgency, domestic or foreign governments actively participate in, support, or ignore the death squad's activities. > Death squads are distinguished from assassination groups by their permanent organization and the larger numb... > [@](#): > > A death squad is an armed group that conducts extrajudicial killings or forced disappearances of persons for the purposes of political repression, genocide, or revolutionary terror. These killings are often conducted in ways meant to ensure the secrecy of the killers’ identities. > **[death squad](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/death-squad)** > > 1. an unofficial armed group who look for and illegally kill particular people… > [@](#): > > an unofficial armed group who look for and illegally kill particular people, especially the enemies of a political party. The point is that many vigilante groups are not like that. They are many times known to the people and even authorities. Also for the case of the Seal team that got Bin Laden is that doing the killings are not a thing where they do not report to higher offices that do review their actions and those reviewers deal with abuses or can change their focus and targets depending on those reviews. This is not happening to the death squads that Duterte was aware from before when he was major and now. And one example you made is a very bad one, the Bakassi Boys are actually an example that show how wrong this idea can get. > **[Beware the Bakassi Boys](https://www.economist.com/international/2001/05/17/beware-the-bakassi-boys)** > > Vigilantes against crime in southern Nigeria And then it became a moot point to use as more recently the group was disbanded in recent years but restored more recently as part of the local governments, meaning that now they are also known by the authorities and have more accountability. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/325 "2016-09-20T17:13:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Bearing in mind that these extrajudicial killings are not all the result of death squads. Many of them are police and private citizens. There might be as many vigilantes as there are death squads. Vigilantes who don’t seem concerned about be pursued by law enforcement, apparently. > [@](#): > > I don’t know if you would say this turned out well but some people don’t find it objectionable when extrajudicial killings are used to reach criminals who are beyond the reach of justice > [Mossad assassinations following the Munich massacre - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wrath_of_God) > > What would you call the special forces teams being sent to kill the leaders of terrorist organizations? Like Osama bin Laden? I’m willing to recognize a distinction between sending out operatives to kill foreign nationals and sending out operatives to kill one’s own fellow citizens. I’m not especially happy about either, but the latter carries the additional risks of eventually being used against domestic political opponents. > [@](#): > > There was no real attempt to bring him back alive for a trial. Obama ordered the murder of a guy who never got his day in court. He has ordered the murder of several people who never had their day in court since then. These are not guys that are being killed on the field of battle, they are guys that are identified as enemies, located and then bombed by drones or killed by special forces. Dutarte, to the extent he is targeting people to be killed, seems to be targeting drug dealers. Who aren’t getting their days in court, either, and it’s less excusable because the courts are right there. > [@](#): > > Some vigilante groups were born to protect citizens in an era of chaos > [Big Swords Society - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Swords_Society) > [Bakassi Boys - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakassi_Boys) > [Grupos de autodefensa comunitaria - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupos_de_Autodefensa_Comunitaria) And the chaos ended and they went back to their peaceful ways, did they? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/326 "2016-09-20T20:02:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Indeed. Almost all that you mentioned are not death squads. It is clear that you were forced to add vigilantes and self defense groups that are more in the open about who they are. When they are not they are just plain death squads. > > [Death squad - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_squad) > [DEATH SQUAD | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/death-squad) Yes, but these killings are not for the purpose of “political repression, genocide, or revolutionary terror” nor are they “enemies of a political party” They are criminals so vigilantes seem like a pretty fair definition of a lot of what is going on. > [@](#): > > The point is that many vigilante groups are not like that. They are many times known to the people and even authorities. > > Also for the case of the Seal team that got Bin Laden is that doing the killings are not a thing where they do not report to higher offices that do review their actions and those reviewers deal with abuses or can change their focus and targets depending on those reviews. > > This is not happening to the death squads that Duterte was aware from before when he was major and now. And one example you made is a very bad one, the Bakassi Boys are actually an example that show how wrong this idea can get. > > [Beware the Bakassi Boys](http://www.economist.com/node/626569) > > And then it became a moot point to use as more recently the group was disbanded in recent years but restored more recently as part of the local governments, meaning that now they are also known by the authorities and have more accountability. OK fine but you guys asked for ONE example. I provided several examples that I thought were analogous with the folks that were doing the killing in the Philippines. So this may not be the first time in history something like this didn’t lead to disaster. Sorry the bakassi boys article is behind a paywall but IIRC they were the lesser of two evils. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/327 "2016-09-20T20:17:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes, but these killings are not for the purpose of “political repression, genocide, or revolutionary terror” nor are they “enemies of a political party” They are criminals so vigilantes seem like a pretty fair definition of a lot of what is going on. As pointed many times before, no, not all are criminals and not all crimes deserves death. Again the lesson you are trying to get that is not really justified by the examples only attempts to justify the gross violation of human rights. And I pointed at another definition of the death squads. not just that one. Wonder what happened to the other one. :dubious: > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK fine but you guys asked for ONE example. I provided several examples that I thought were analogous with the folks that were doing the killing in the Philippines. > So this may not be the first time in history something like this didn’t lead to disaster. And as pointed out you were wrong. Not analogous. Many of the examples you mentioned were coming from people that still have still some accountability as the authorities can intervene to deal with abuses. In the Philippines there is no recourse for the innocent and people unfairly put to death. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/328 "2016-09-20T20:24:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK fine but you guys asked for ONE example. I provided several examples that I thought were analogous with the folks that were doing the killing in the Philippines. So this may not be the first time in history something like this didn’t lead to disaster. > > Sorry the bakassi boys article is behind a paywall but IIRC they were the lesser of two evils. Certainly it may be necessary to choose the lesser of two evils, _if those are the only choices you have_, and this is unclear at best. Besides, the end result doesn’t have to be actual disaster. It’s just very likely to leave you worse off than if you\* hadn’t \*embraced death squads and unchecked vigilantism after deciding that some people just needed killin’. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/329 "2016-09-20T21:01:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As pointed many times before, no, not all are criminals and not all crimes deserves death. > > Again the lesson you are trying to get that is not really justified by the examples only attempts to justify the gross violation of human rights. And I pointed at another definition of the death squads. not just that one. Wonder what happened to the other one. :dubious: They’re both there. See the part where I say “political repression, genocide, or revolutionary terror” and the part where I say “enemies of a political party” > [@](#): > > And as pointed out you were wrong. Not analogous. Many of the examples you mentioned were coming from people that still have still some accountability as the authorities can intervene to deal with abuses. In the Philippines there is no recourse for the innocent and people unfairly put to death. Are you under the impression that the homicide division of the Philippine police department has been fired or is no longer doing its job? Yeah, the assassins and special forces that go out and hunt terrorists have accountability. So? If there are death squads in the Philippines, aren’t they also accountable to someone? Aren’t the police (who account for a lot of the deaths) also accountable to someone? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/330 "2016-09-20T21:07:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Certainly it may be necessary to choose the lesser of two evils, _if those are the only choices you have_, and this is unclear at best. > > Besides, the end result doesn’t have to be actual disaster. It’s just very likely to leave you worse off than if you\* hadn’t \*embraced death squads and unchecked vigilantism after deciding that some people just needed killin’. I don’t know that there is unchecked vigilantism. There does still seem to be police work being done and prosecutions of criminals including murderers. Perhaps there is another option out there but the Philippines is not required to adopt YOUR preferred method. They are a democracy and they have decided that enough is enough and they want the drug dealers out and they will kill them if that’s what it takes. Maybe it will work, maybe it won’t. Maybe the Philippines would have been better off using some other method, maybe they wouldn’t. But the Philippines decided to adopt this guy’s approach and they are overwhelmingly happy with it. He enjoys ridiculously high approval ratings, particularly among the poor and disadvantaged who suffer the most from the drug cartel’s control over the streets. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/331 "2016-09-20T21:08:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > They’re both there. See the part where I say “political repression, genocide, or revolutionary terror” and the part where I say “enemies of a political party” :rolleyes: This one: “an unofficial armed group who look for and \*\*illegally \*\*kill particular people” > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Are you under the impression that the homicide division of the Philippine police department has been fired or is no longer doing its job? What makes you think that? I see only another straw man here. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, the assassins and special forces that go out and hunt terrorists have accountability. So? If there are death squads in the Philippines, aren’t they also accountable to someone? Aren’t the police (who account for a lot of the deaths) also accountable to someone? That would Duterte then (or he does know who they are as he is proud to say), but as we can see the relatives of the innocent and the ones that do not deserve death get no help from el supremo of today. The ones committing murder now are indeed death squads, with no one being taken to task when abuses are being committed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/332 "2016-09-20T21:25:45Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Perhaps there is another option out there but the Philippines is not required to adopt YOUR preferred method. I’m not sure if I expressed one, though if I had it would be for drug legalization in stages. > [@](#): > > They are a democracy Well, let’s see if that’s still true next election cycle, wot? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/333 "2016-09-22T13:51:13Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: > > This one: “an unofficial armed group who look for and \*\*illegally \*\*kill particular people” OK, and how is that different from vigilante? because we are trying to distinguish vigilante from death squad, right? Either they are controlled by Duterte and he is NOT using them for political repression, or they are not controlled by Duterte and they are vigilantes. You keep throwing shit against the wall hoping something will stick. > [@](#): > > What makes you think that? I see only another straw man here. Because you say stuff like: “In the Philippines there is no recourse for the innocent and people unfairly put to death.” The Philippines still have a functioning law enforcement function so there is in fact some recourse for innocent people unfairly put to death. > [@](#): > > That would Duterte then (or he does know who they are as he is proud to say), but as we can see the relatives of the innocent and the ones that do not deserve death get no help from el supremo of today. The ones committing murder now are indeed death squads, with no one being taken to task when abuses are being committed. What abuses? Are you talking about collateral damage or deliberate murder of innocents? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/334 "2016-09-22T13:54:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m not sure if I expressed one, though if I had it would be for drug legalization in stages. > > Well, let’s see if that’s still true next election cycle, wot? I agree, it is waaay to premature to declare Duterte a dictator ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/335 "2016-09-22T14:55:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK, and how is that different from vigilante? because we are trying to distinguish vigilante from death squad, right? Either they are controlled by Duterte and he is NOT using them for political repression, or they are not controlled by Duterte and they are vigilantes. You keep throwing shit against the wall hoping something will stick. Nope, those are your arguments as it is what others can see in the thread. Your “OK” there also came only after avoiding \*\*twice \*\*the definition of what I also pointed clearly out. As it is your continuing relying on straw men, I did not say that what Duterte is looking at in the Philippines to be vigilantes, those are death squads, plain and simple. And there is even a tacit acknowledgment by Duterte that he does know who they are and are right now acting with his blessing. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Because you say stuff like: “In the Philippines there is no recourse for the innocent and people unfairly put to death.” > > The Philippines still have a functioning law enforcement function so there is in fact some recourse for innocent people unfairly put to death. The news reports about Danica May, a little girl that died at the hands of one of the death squads, report that the family does not expect see much of any justice to come from Duterte. [http://www.philstar.com:8080/headlines/2016/08/28/1618091/human-rights-watch-condemns-death-5-year-old-girl-drug-war](http://www.philstar.com:8080/headlines/2016/08/28/1618091/human-rights-watch-condemns-death-5-year-old-girl-drug-war) > [@](#): > > MANILA, Philippines — International group Human Rights Watch (HRW) recently condemned the death of a five-year-old girl, the youngest reported victim claimed by the Duterte administration’s war on drugs. > > HRW Asia Deputy Director Phelim Kine said kindergarten student, Danica May Garcia, sustained a gunshot wound to her head that led to her death. The bullet was reportedly intended for her grandfather, Maximo Garcia, who was shot by an unidentified assailant as their family sat down to lunch. > > According to Kine, the attack against Maximo came three days after he registered with the Philippine National Police to deny his alleged involvement in the illegal drug trade. Unlike his granddaughter, Maximo survived being shot in the abdomen and his attack was attributed by the police to unnamed drug dealers. As many others that had little to nothing to do with drugs: [http://interaksyon.com/article/131746/parents-of-young-woman-slain-with-espinosa-lawyer-seek-justice-but-see-slim-chance](http://interaksyon.com/article/131746/parents-of-young-woman-slain-with-espinosa-lawyer-seek-justice-but-see-slim-chance) > [@](#): > > (Like this, there really is nothing you can do when you’re poor),” he said. > (Those who claim my child was a drug runner, it isn’t true. If it was, our lives should be better),” Joel said. > (It’s like they are weighing down our feet to drown us. They should deepen their investigation to get at the truth because, if they don’t, more innocents will end up like my daughter),” he said. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What abuses? Are you talking about collateral damage or deliberate murder of innocents? :rolleyes: A distinction without a difference. As I pointed before and now to cases where both collateral and deliberate murders of innocents were reported. Indeed both are abuses of power as Duterte knows who the perpetrators are or he does not care to look for them when he has the power to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/336 "2016-09-23T02:28:51Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nope, those are your arguments as it is what others can see in the thread. Your “OK” there also came only after avoiding \*\*twice \*\*the definition of what I also pointed clearly out. As it is your continuing relying on straw men, I did not say that what Duterte is looking at in the Philippines to be vigilantes, those are death squads, plain and simple. And there is even a tacit acknowledgment by Duterte that he does know who they are and are right now acting with his blessing. Just so you know. When I say OK there its not in agreement with you. You seem to be unable to distinguish between death squads, vigilante’s and police killings. [quote] The news reports about Danica May, a little girl that died at the hands of one of the death squads, report that the family does not expect see much of any justice to come from Duterte. > [@](#): > > [http://www.philstar.com:8080/headlines/2016/08/28/1618091/human-rights-watch-condemns-death-5-year-old-girl-drug-war](http://www.philstar.com:8080/headlines/2016/08/28/1618091/human-rights-watch-condemns-death-5-year-old-girl-drug-war) Her killers have at least as much chance of being brought to justice as people that were being killed by drug cartels before Duterte took office. Probably more. > [@](#): > > As many others that had little to nothing to do with drugs: > > [http://interaksyon.com/article/131746/parents-of-young-woman-slain-with-espinosa-lawyer-seek-justice-but-see-slim-chance](http://interaksyon.com/article/131746/parents-of-young-woman-slain-with-espinosa-lawyer-seek-justice-but-see-slim-chance) It is possible that there is collateral damage to people who are too close to criminals. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: > > A distinction without a difference. As I pointed before and now to cases where both collateral and deliberate murders of innocents were reported. Indeed both are abuses of power as Duterte knows who the perpetrators are or he does not care to look for them when he has the power to do so. Of COURSE there is a difference between the murder of innocents and the inadvertant killing of innocents who get caught in the crossfire. How could you possibly believe that this is a distinction without a difference. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/337 "2016-09-23T04:30:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Just so you know. When I say OK there its not in agreement with you. You seem to be unable to distinguish between death squads, vigilante’s and police killings. :rolleyes: Read it again, I was indeed saying that there was no agreement from you, because you were avoiding that definition. And it was not about the definition itself but to remark how clearly you did not notice or glossed over that definition. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Her killers have at least as much chance of being brought to justice as people that were being killed by drug cartels before Duterte took office. Probably more. Not likely as the killers are in reality being congratulated still by Duterte. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It is possible that there is collateral damage to people who are too close to criminals. :rolleyes: That does not justify their killing. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Of COURSE there is a difference between the murder of innocents and the inadvertant killing of innocents who get caught in the crossfire. How could you possibly believe that this is a distinction without a difference. :rolleyes::rolleyes: The non-difference was about the authorities abusing their power in relation to both murdering innocents and innocents caught in the crossfire; both depend, in the cases at hand, on the illegal use of force and perpetrators that hide and have no accountability. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/338 "2016-09-23T16:08:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Read it again, I was indeed saying that there was no agreement from you, because you were avoiding that definition. I’m not avoiding your definition, I’m rejecting it. > [@](#): > > And it was not about the definition itself but to remark how clearly you did not notice or glossed over that definition. I did not think it worthy of response. > [@](#): > > Not likely as the killers are in reality being congratulated still by Duterte. Duterte is congratulating people for killing 5 year olds? Really? Cite or retract. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: > > That does not justify their killing. Collateral damage is never justified it is a consequence of other policies. You can’t look at the policy’s collateral damage without looking at the primary effects. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes::rolleyes: > > The non-difference was about the authorities abusing their power in relation to both murdering innocents and innocents caught in the crossfire; both depend, in the cases at hand, on the illegal use of force and perpetrators that hide and have no accountability. Cite that Duterte is targetting innocents. cite or retract. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/339 "2016-09-23T16:10:32Z")
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?height=400&width=400&href=https://www.facebook.com/NPR/videos/10154792466271756/ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/340 "2016-09-23T22:47:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m not avoiding your definition, I’m rejecting it. It was just more convenient to avoid it twice than rejecting it of course. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I did not think it worthy of response. Because you were also wrong about that simple thing, I was indeed saying that either way Duterte can not avoid having some responsibility, if not much for the crime, he has it for not prosecuting the criminals that he is only approving of. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Duterte is congratulating people for killing 5 year olds? Really? Cite or retract. Will retract when he **begins** to hunt for the killers. As it is now Duterte has not taken back this: > **[Kill drug dealers and I'll give you a medal, says Philippines president](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/05/kill-drug-dealers-medal-philippines-president-rodrigo-duterte)** > > Addressing huge crowd, Rodrigo Duterte, president-elect, urges DIY law enforcement and threatens to humiliate police generals > [@](#): > > He warned about an extensive illegal drugs trade in the country that involved even police. If a drug dealer resisted arrest or refused to be brought to a police station and instead threatened a citizen with a gun or knife, “you can kill him”, Duterte said. “Shoot him and I’ll give you a medal.” > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Collateral damage is never justified it is a consequence of other policies. You can’t look at the policy’s collateral damage without looking at the primary effects. Due to the lack of due process and unwillingness of going after the ones that did the collateral damage it follows that Duterte does not mind what they are doing. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Cite that Duterte is targetting innocents. > > cite or retract. Again: Due to the lack of due process and unwillingness of going after the ones that did the collateral damage it follows that he does not mind what they are doing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=18)