# If it works in the Phillipins should Mexico try the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748 "2016-08-23T18:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/101 "2016-08-27T18:32:25Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The entire history of death squads. I can think of a dozen times this has tried off the top of my head. “Hey, let’s just kill the people that bug us” is not a new idea in politics. > > Not surprisingly, extra-judicial violence has a long record of not being particularly helpful to law and order. In some cases it can be a lesser of two evils. [http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com\_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=11417](http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=11417) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/102 "2016-08-27T18:34:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > There is no evidence for what you claim here. You don’t think innocents were being killed on a daily basis before this? I make no claim about whether more or fewer innocents are being killed but you don’t seem to even take that into account. Their murder rate was really high before this. What is it now (aside from the extrajudicial killings? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/103 "2016-08-27T19:02:22Z")
You need to get evidence for what you claim. I only pointed at your cavalier attitude towards the innocent victims. And I should add that many of the killed would not had deserved death anyhow. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In some cases it can be a lesser of two evils. > > [http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com\_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=11417](http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=11417) Nope. Two wrongs in Mexico does not make it right. [Mexico’s Self-Defense Militias Follow Cartels Into Deadly Internal Conflict](https://news.vice.com/article/mexico-s-self-defense-militias-follow-cartels-into-deadly-internal-conflict) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/104 "2016-08-27T19:18:36Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If the government is in league with drug dealers, would they not kill people who kill drug dealers? No, they would kill drug dealers who are not part of their organization. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/105 "2016-08-27T19:19:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > cite? I don’t think you’ve provided a single cite that this idea of murdering one’s way out of a crime problem is generally an effective strategy. Asking others for cites that “death squads don’t lead to a better country” is pretty ballsy. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/106 "2016-08-27T21:26:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you think a society run by organized crime and drug lords is preferable to rough justice? The the weak and powerless, it’s just a different group of people doing the killing. But the powerful and well armed will take advantage of the power vacuum either way. And the same group of people are going to get killed. You used the term “rough justice”. Do you realize that it’s another phrase for mass killings of the weak and scared by the powerful and ruthless? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/107 "2016-08-28T04:50:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You need to get evidence for what you claim. I only pointed at your cavalier attitude towards the innocent victims. And I should add that many of the killed would not had deserved death anyhow. > > Nope. Two wrongs in Mexico does not make it right. > > [Mexico’s Self-Defense Militias Follow Cartels Into Deadly Internal Conflict](https://news.vice.com/article/mexico-s-self-defense-militias-follow-cartels-into-deadly-internal-conflict) So these vigilaantes are worse than the Knights Templar Cartel? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/108 "2016-08-28T04:52:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I don’t think you’ve provided a single cite that this idea of murdering one’s way out of a crime problem is generally an effective strategy. Asking others for cites that “death squads don’t lead to a better country” is pretty ballsy. I am asking for a cite that the past history of the current president shows that he is a crime boss that is consolidating his power. I am making a hypotheses. There can be a greater good on the other side of violence in places without law and order. I am questioning whether this particlar person is actualyl a crime boss that is simply consolidating his power rather than an overzealous politician that is trying to do some good. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/109 "2016-08-28T04:55:14Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The the weak and powerless, it’s just a different group of people doing the killing. But the powerful and well armed will take advantage of the power vacuum either way. And the same group of people are going to get killed. > > You used the term “rough justice”. Do you realize that it’s another phrase for mass killings of the weak and scared by the powerful and ruthless? You say that the weak and powerless are being killed, as always, just by a different group. How do you explain the 90%+ approval rate of a guy that is killing the same weak and powerless that were getting killed before? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/110 "2016-08-28T05:01:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So these vigilaantes are worse than the Knights Templar Cartel? The point was that your pointed at solution was not a very useful one. It was reckless. The report actually starts as “Mexico’s Self-Defense Militias **Follow** Cartels Into Deadly Internal Conflict” ‘Meet the new boss, same as the old boss’. > **[A harvest of lead](https://www.economist.com/leaders/2016/08/12/a-harvest-of-lead)** > > Rodrigo Duterte is living up to his promise to fight crime by shooting first and asking questions later > [@](#): > > **Mr Duterte claims to have cleaned up Davao by being the baddest man in town. But his tenure is hardly the success he claims it to be: crime rates are high and the city is still the country’s murder capital.** Now he is bringing the methods of Davao to Manila (see article). That so many should find this appealing speaks volumes about how far Filipino institutions have rotted, under both the dictatorship of the late Ferdinand Marcos and successive democratically elected presidents. > > Mr Duterte would have the world believe that the Philippines’ corrupt and ineffective police have suddenly become omniscient—able to tell innocence from guilt and decide who may live and who should die. When he menacingly read out the names of more than 150 officials deemed connected to the drug trade, at least two of those whom he fingered were already dead. It would be comical were the consequences not so horrifying. One recent picture shows a distraught woman cradling her husband lying dead next to a sign, pusher ako (“I am a drug pusher”)—a tropical version of Michelangelo’s “Pietà”. > > Right now Mr Duterte seems beyond restraint. When the chief justice demanded proper arrest warrants, Mr Duterte threatened to impose martial law. And when the American ambassador expressed misgivings, Mr Duterte labelled him bakla, a pansy. But Filipinos and their foreign friends must keep exerting pressure on him. > > The lesson of the drug wars in Latin America, and of previous dirty wars, is that extrajudicial violence resolves nothing and makes everything worse. Innocent people will be killed; and denunciations will also be used to settle scores and exploited by gangs to wipe out rivals. Filipinos’ desire for instant retribution will, surely, turn to horror, hatred and revenge. The rule of law will erode. Investors, who have made the Philippines one of globalisation’s winners in recent years, will flee. The only winners will be the still-lurking insurgents. Mr Duterte’s ill-conceived war on drugs will make the Philippines poorer and more violent. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/111 "2016-08-28T05:27:27Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I am asking for a cite that the past history of the current president shows that he is a crime boss that is consolidating his power. Well, mass murder is generally considered a crime. And he’s the president, which makes him a boss. And he’s risen from mayor to president so there’s the power thing. So, yes, “he is a crime boss that is consolidating his power” seems to be a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/112 "2016-08-28T05:29:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > In some cases it can be a lesser of two evils. Two thousand murders is the lesser evil? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/113 "2016-08-28T12:44:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So they should decriminalize crystal meth and set up an independent commission to identify and remove corrupt elected officials? So how does the president do that without the cooperation of a corrupt legislature? The Filipino president is the chief executive, like the US President, so Duterte could cease prosecuting drug possession unilaterally. Furthermore, his party has a plurality in the House of Representatives, Duterte is hardly a maverick with no support. Lastly, if you propose an independent anti-corruption commission, modeled on successful commissions in other countries, then you force those Senators and Representatives who are pro-corruption to out themselves as corrupt, by voting against it. Then it’s up to the voters to replace them. > [@](#): > > Who gets to pick the members of this commission? The President? There are several models to choose from; the President appointing a Selection Committee with the approval of the legislatures is a typical approach; the Selection Committee then fills out the commission. > [@](#): > > What do you do when all the really easy palatable options, either don’t work or are politically impossible. The easy option is murdering people who oppose you. As we’ve seen, it’s popular with the masses. Decriminalization and systematic reform are the difficult, slow options, but they have the advantage of actually working. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2016, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/114 "2016-08-28T13:34:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Well, mass murder is generally considered a crime. And he’s the president, which makes him a boss. And he’s risen from mayor to president so there’s the power thing. > > So, yes, “he is a crime boss that is consolidating his power” seems to be a fact. Do you know who _else_ committed crimes when president to consolidate his power?Nixon. When people use the phrase “crime boss” they generally mean the head of a _non-governmental_ organization whose purpose is to make money from crime. There are other useful words for governmental corruption. Now, if the president had previously been the head of such an organization, I’d feel comfortable calling him a crime boss even if the organization is currently legal or unprosecuted or nonexistent. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/115 "2016-08-30T01:53:17Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The point was that your pointed at solution was not a very useful one. It was reckless. > > The report actually starts as “Mexico’s Self-Defense Militias **Follow** Cartels Into Deadly Internal Conflict” > > ‘Meet the new boss, same as the old boss’. > > [A harvest of lead](http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21704793-rodrigo-duterte-living-up-his-promise-fight-crime-shooting-first-and-asking-questions) OK, these human rights abuses are horrible. now what if they work? What if 6 years from now, crime has dropped significantly? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/116 "2016-08-30T01:54:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Well, mass murder is generally considered a crime. And he’s the president, which makes him a boss. And he’s risen from mayor to president so there’s the power thing. > > So, yes, “he is a crime boss that is consolidating his power” seems to be a fact. So, THAT’S your explanation?!?!? He is a crime boss because you have made up in your mind that he is a criminal and because he is the President of the country that makes him a boss, ergo crime boss??!?!?! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/117 "2016-08-30T01:56:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Two thousand murders is the lesser evil? Can you imagine no situation that has occurred in the world in our lifetime that was not a greater evil than the extrajudicial killing of 2000 alleged criminals? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/118 "2016-08-30T01:58:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The easy option is murdering people who oppose you. As we’ve seen, it’s popular with the masses. Decriminalization and systematic reform are the difficult, slow options, but they have the advantage of actually working. And what if these extrajudicial killings work. Don’t fight the hypothetical. If it works, then should Mexico try the same? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/119 "2016-08-30T02:01:56Z")
Dog carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst stomach. This city’s afraid of me. I’ve seen its true face. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/120 "2016-08-30T02:25:14Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > When people use the phrase “crime boss” they generally mean the head of a _non-governmental_ organization whose purpose is to make money from crime. There are other useful words for governmental corruption. Now, if the president had previously been the head of such an organization, I’d feel comfortable calling him a crime boss even if the organization is currently legal or unprosecuted or nonexistent. You don’t normally have the head of a country running death squads. And murder is still a crime in the Philippines. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So, THAT’S your explanation?!?!? > > He is a crime boss because you have made up in your mind that he is a criminal and because he is the President of the country that makes him a boss, ergo crime boss??!?!?! Well, yes. The facts are the facts. He’s murdering hundreds of people. Most people are going to call that a crime. You seem to be pretty much alone here in being okay with it. And Duterte is the President. He called for these murders to be carried out and he’s taking credit for them. So, yes, that makes him the boss. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=7)