# If it works in the Phillipins should Mexico try the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748 "2016-08-23T18:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/121 "2016-08-30T02:45:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wait. Are they killing drug USERS too? The articles I’ve seen say they are targeting drug dealers and users, and the quoted figure of 700,000 people who have turned themselves in is mostly users who are afraid of being caught with drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/122 "2016-08-30T02:46:51Z")
Even guys named “Doug” have started looking over their shoulders. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/123 "2016-08-30T03:00:56Z")
Combatting crime when the police and justice system are corrupt is difficult. Hats off to any country that pulls it off. But corrupt police and corrupt politicians may not be the best people to put in charge of crime eradication. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The criminal own much of the police force as well as many politicians… > > [Duterte’s solution] has resulted in the police killing 700 alleged drug dealers … As others point out, when the criminal drug-dealing police are put in charge of killing drug dealers, there’s a real danger that the effect will be to rid the top criminals of competition rather than ridding the streets of crime. How has this program worked in the Phillipines? I’m not sure I’d trust normal news sources to give a correct answer. An obvious way to tackle the question — has the price of illegal drugs gone up? — wouldn’t be convincing. If the extrajudicial killings were directed by top criminals, they’d be delighted with the higher prices they’re getting now. A Prime Minister of Thailand — the now-fugitive brother of recently deposed P.M.Ying-Yuk — was especially famous for his similar program of extrajudicial killings. That program had mixed reviews but an official investigation in 2007 found that more than half of the 2800 killed had no connection whatsoever to drugs. (And some of the actual drug dealers murdered may simply have been competitors to the well-connected people selecting the victims.) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/124 "2016-08-30T04:05:04Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > OK, these human rights abuses are horrible. now what if they work? What if 6 years from now, crime has dropped significantly? Duterte was mayor of Davao city for seven terms, **totaling more than 22 years.** Before becoming president the claim was made that he had rid the city of violent crime. That was poppycock. > **[PNP data shows Davao had the most number of murder incidents](https://www.philstar.com/nation/2016/04/01/1568337/pnp-data-shows-davao-had-most-number-murder-incidents)** > > Davao City posted the most number of murder incidents from 2010 to 2015, data from the Philippine National Police showed. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/125 "2016-08-30T11:04:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I can think of two related instances where a fastidious adherence to presumption of innocence might be less important than it is in a functional democracy operating under the rule of law. > > When there is a collapse of rule of law. > > When the justice system has gotten so irredeemably corrupt. > > That doesn’t mean we should just kill random people in the hopes that some of them will be criminals. In truly corrupt places where the rule of law has collapsed, there is no real secret about who the criminals are. Sure there will be other killings that will be camouflaged by these extrajudicial killings but these are not societies where innocent people were not getting murdered. Do you think the extrajudicial killing created an opportunity for murder that didn’t exist before. Sure there will be some collateral damage but that collateral damage was already occurring and the extrajudicial killings might prevent more collateral damage in the future. If the Rule of Law collapsed then you have bigger and more immediate problems than drug dealing; it’s like fidgeting with a glitchy thermostat while the house burns around you. Having said that, do you know what is one way for the Rule of Law to collapse? To have the head of state give carte blanche to anyone to assassinate people under the _suspicion_ of being criminals. If the problem is with the Rule of Law, you fix the Rule of Law; you don’t bin it and declare “Rule of Law? We don’t need no stinking Rule of Law”. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/126 "2016-08-30T13:08:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And what if these extrajudicial killings work. Don’t fight the hypothetical. If it works, then should Mexico try the same? No. 1). I’ve already outlined a solution to the same problems the death squads purport to solve, which requires zero dead five-year-old girls. Notably, it’s the solution the US applied when it faced similar problems in the 1930s. Do you suspect that death squads prowling the streets of Chicago killing suspected bootleggers would have been a better approach? 2). If the death squads somehow made the Philippines a better country, this would be an unprecedented, one-in-a-million event. Advocating it as a best practice would be like advocating leaping out of planes with no parachutes, because Vesna Vulović did it and survived. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/127 "2016-08-30T14:52:51Z")
So, if I think that Duterte is a drug dealer, it’s totally cool if I shoot him? No matter what the answer to that is: No, I don’t really see this working out. Wait until nitwits’ first term is over, and then we might have some idea if it works. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/128 "2016-08-30T20:19:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Well, yes. The facts are the facts. > > He’s murdering hundreds of people. Most people are going to call that a crime. You seem to be pretty much alone here in being okay with it. You seem to be pretty much alone in your definition of crime boss. The extent of how “OK” I am with it depends entirely on how effective it is. > [@](#): > > And Duterte is the President. He called for these murders to be carried out and he’s taking credit for them. So, yes, that makes him the boss. I don’t think most people think of that as a crime boss. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/129 "2016-08-30T20:25:31Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Combatting crime when the police and justice system are corrupt is difficult. Hats off to any country that pulls it off. But corrupt police and corrupt politicians may not be the best people to put in charge of crime eradication. > > As others point out, when the criminal drug-dealing police are put in charge of killing drug dealers, there’s a real danger that the effect will be to rid the top criminals of competition rather than ridding the streets of crime. The NYC Police Department used to be corrupt. The vast majority of then police were not on some criminal’s payroll. They ignored the fact that several of their fellow cops were dirty but most of them were glad when they cleaned up the force. > [@](#): > > How has this program worked in the Phillipines? I’m not sure I’d trust normal news sources to give a correct answer. An obvious way to tackle the question — has the price of illegal drugs gone up? — wouldn’t be convincing. If the extrajudicial killings were directed by top criminals, they’d be delighted with the higher prices they’re getting now. > > A Prime Minister of Thailand — the now-fugitive brother of recently deposed P.M.Ying-Yuk — was especially famous for his similar program of extrajudicial killings. That program had mixed reviews but an official investigation in 2007 found that more than half of the 2800 killed had no connection whatsoever to drugs. (And some of the actual drug dealers murdered may simply have been competitors to the well-connected people selecting the victims.) I’m skeptical too but so far all we have is 700 police killings of people that allegedly resisted arrest and 1000 extrajudicial killings of alleged criminals by vigilante’s (and some collateral damage, like the 5 year old grand daughter of one of the alleged criminals). That and the surrender of 600,000 criminals. So the question is IF it works, then what do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/130 "2016-08-30T20:41:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So the question is IF it works, then what do you think? Define “works”. Right now we have death squads on the streets and hundreds of thousands of people afraid for their lives. What would “works” look like and how do you plan on putting the genie back in the bottle when you achieve it? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/131 "2016-08-31T16:55:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Right now they’re killing criminals. Pretty soon they’ll be killing people who object to the killings. Then they’ll kill people who want to vote for somebody else besides the people in power. Then they’ll kill people who are rebelling against the government. Then they’ll kill people who might rebel. But t all those people you mentioned are clearly drug dealers otherwise why would they oppose such a wise and benevolent leader. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, I don’t but these folks in the Phillipines seem to trust Duarte who maintais a 90%+ approval rating despite all killings. I’m sure if all goes according to plan he will win re-election with 100% of the vote just like Saddam Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/132 "2016-08-31T18:10:51Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Even guys named “Doug” have started looking over their shoulders. And Doug Diller is currently in hiding. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/133 "2016-08-31T21:55:07Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I’m sure if all goes according to plan he will win re-election with 100% of the vote just like Saddam Hussein. Is part of that plan changing the constitution? The President of the Philippines is limited to one term. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/134 "2016-09-01T17:09:25Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Is part of that plan changing the constitution? The President of the Philippines is limited to one term. Actually, yes. Duterte plans to call a constitutional convention or assembly in order to institute federalism. There is already an extremely limited form of federalism as two historically ignored regions have been granted a form of limited autonomy. Constitutional federalism would devolve more power to outlying provinces and away from “Imperial Manila”. Changing term limits is not part of the plan nor was it ever raised as an issue during the campaign. If Duterte ever tries to set himself up as another Marcos, the Filipino people won’t stand for it. We already kicked out two presidents by demonstrating in the streets; we can do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/135 "2016-09-02T01:17:43Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I’m sure if all goes according to plan he will win re-election with 100% of the vote just like Saddam Hussein. Do you have ANY evidence of electoral fraud? Because out of the bucketloads of criticisms that the folks have against this guy, electoral fraud (and being a crime boss) is not among them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/136 "2016-09-02T01:22:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Do you have ANY evidence of electoral fraud? Because out of the bucketloads of criticisms that the folks have against this guy, electoral fraud (and being a crime boss) is not among them. As they say, history does not repeat itself, but it rhymes. And you are only demonstrating deep ignorance of how dictators gain power, democracy is used too at the beginning and that is what the other poster is likely referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/137 "2016-09-02T18:48:18Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As they say, history does not repeat itself, but it rhymes. WTF does that have to do with anything. The allegation was that this guy would rig the vote next time around. He currently has over 90% approval rating. Do you have ANY evidence that he has or would rig an election? Or are you just assuming that because you don’t like him his voters couldn’t possibly like him either? > [@](#): > > And you are only demonstrating deep ignorance of how dictators gain power, democracy is used too at the beginning and that is what the other poster is likely referring to. Why do you think that I was unaware that dictators are frequently elected at first? What did I say that made it appear that I thought that dictators were never popularly elected? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/138 "2016-09-02T23:53:35Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > Actually, yes. Duterte plans to call a constitutional convention or assembly in order to institute federalism. There is already an extremely limited form of federalism as two historically ignored regions have been granted a form of limited autonomy. Constitutional federalism would devolve more power to outlying provinces and away from “Imperial Manila”. Changing term limits is not part of the plan nor was it ever raised as an issue during the campaign. If Duterte ever tries to set himself up as another Marcos, the Filipino people won’t stand for it. We already kicked out two presidents by demonstrating in the streets; we can do it again. Allah I was referring to was the constitutional limit on presidential terms: one. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/139 "2016-09-03T00:32:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > WTF does that have to do with anything. The allegation was that this guy would rig the vote next time around. He currently has over 90% approval rating. > > Do you have ANY evidence that he has or would rig an election? Or are you just assuming that because you don’t like him his voters couldn’t possibly like him either? That sale of straw men at Cosco must be ongoing. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why do you think that I was unaware that dictators are frequently elected at first? What did I say that made it appear that I thought that dictators were never popularly elected? Eventually dictators do have to resort to electoral fraud, they may have indeed the support of many now, but eventually that is not a redeeming feature for the mistake most of the people are making. The point that it is clear to me, but never to you it seems, is that the other poster was referring to what would come next, not how they got there to support a dictator. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/140 "2016-09-03T01:12:03Z")
I’d like to repeat the request of what you imagine a successful outcome of this would be. Because the current scenario seems to be “Any angry violent person (especially drug dealers) can murder anybody and get away with it by calling their target a drug dealer”. The end game I’m anticipating here is that eventually a single, dominant group of murderous drug dealers will have consolidated their competition and murdered everybody who’s inclined to oppose them, and will then operate unopposed in a blissful environment of unopposed, possibly government-sanctioned corruption over a cowed populace. The idea that all the drug dealers will be killed and all the peaceful civilians will live happily ever after seems predicated on the assumption that peaceful civilians are much, much, MUCH better at murdering people than hardened, experienced criminals. This seems like an absurd assumption on the surface. The populace may like that romantic ideal of virtuous vigilante superiority, but I personally have doubts that Duterte was operating under such rosy assumptions when he gave the criminals carte blanche to murder people unchecked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=8)