# If it works in the Phillipins should Mexico try the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748 "2016-08-23T18:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/161 "2016-09-07T21:41:43Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > You know overpopulation is a serious problem in some areas. What if we had a system where everyone over 30 had to honorably commit suicide to make room for the next generation? We could make a public life-affirming celebration out of it - call it _Carousel_ or something. Surely this is something that could reasonably be explored in a country with a tremendous population density - say, Monaco. Ah, but does it _work?_ ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/162 "2016-09-08T03:50:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So how many innocent lives lost \*do \*you consider acceptable when you define “works”? Which you haven’t yet, btw. Fewer lives than are being prior to him taking office. “Works” is lower crime rates. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/163 "2016-09-08T03:51:34Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > 2400 people have been killed so far, with no end in sight. We have no way of knowing how many of them are drug dealers, drug users, rivals of the powerful, innocent bystanders or some combination. I’m not changing the hypothetical, I’m describing the situation on the ground. You’re taking a very rosy view of what’s going on. You said 10,000 INNOCENT lives. That is not describing the facts on the ground that is hyperventilating. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/164 "2016-09-08T03:53:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And as far as I can tell, the majority of your replies in this thread have been along the lines of “Yeah, yeah, innocents killed, court systems made irrelevant, populations living in fear, whatever, but what if it _worked_, would it be okay then?” > > i.e. not a lot of interest in the inescapable flaws of the premise, like someone who’s already presupposed God in order to “prove” God. Not at all. presupposing god to prove the existence of God would be like presupposing that Dutarte’s strategy works in order to prove that it works. I have no idea whether or not it will work but noone has really proven that it hasn’t worked yet. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/165 "2016-09-08T03:57:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hey, just spitballing here, but what if it _worked_ (for some as-yet-undefined value of “worked”) if once a year we drew lots and one random person out of 100 was gloriously disemboweled in the public square? Sure, it’d be a bit messy, but don’t fight the hypothetical - _what if it worked?!_ Should Sweden try it? No, the cost would be too high. The murder rate does not approach 1% per year anywhere on earth. If one person somewhere in the world were killed at random and as a result, there was no more war, no more crime, no more poverty and sickness, would it be worth it? It sort of matters what the costs and benefits are. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/166 "2016-09-08T04:09:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, the cost would be too high. The murder rate does not approach 1% per year anywhere on earth. I didn’t say anything about the murder rate. You’re just fighting the hypothetical. > [@](#): > > If one person somewhere in the world were killed at random and as a result, there was no more war, no more crime, no more poverty and sickness, would it be worth it? It sort of matters what the costs and benefits are. Okay, if that’s what you mean by “works”, then Mexico should NOT adopt the Phillipines model because they’re not nearly achieving that level of effectiveness, nor does they seem likely to anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/167 "2016-09-08T04:15:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > For sure you are thinking about some fellows in Europe; but no, as usual your ignorance shows. I was talking of Latin America and several examples from my old country, I do know what happens when strong men decide they like the power they got first by legal ways, they then resort to electoral fraud to keep it. So where are these multitudes of obvious examples from South america that only an ignoramous like me wouldn’t know about? Don’t be coy. Name them so we can compare them to Dutarte. Then maybe I can present some democratically elected politicians who did horrible things and didn’t kill democracy in their country to sty in power. Heck some of them are even from THIS country. > [@](#): > > As pointed before the city looks better on the surface now but Dutarte did not pacify the city he ruled for many years. Best bet is that the henchmen he used then are ruling unopposed now and killing the ones that they suspect of opposing them. You are substituting facts with opinions and guesses there. I can do the same thing. The city looks better because things are in fact better. See, that was easy. Is crime lower? Was the cost of lowering that crime higher than the cost of letting crime continue as it was? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/168 "2016-09-08T04:20:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I didn’t say anything about the murder rate. You’re just fighting the hypothetical. > > Okay, if that’s what you mean by “works”, then Mexico should NOT adopt the Phillipines model because they’re not nearly achieving that level of effectiveness, nor does they seem likely to anytime soon. :rolleyes: You throw out a stupid ridiculous example whereby a country like American would kill 3 million people a year to achieve the goal of reducing out of control crime rates and ask if that would be worth it. So I throw out an equally stupid hypothetical. If it wasn’t obvious to you that “works” is a reference to reducing crime then I apologize for not being more clear. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/169 "2016-09-08T05:12:29Z")
This thread is interesting to me because it exposes the flaw in pure pragmatism. Pure pragmatism, in my view, just seeks to solve the problem, or else achieve some positive result. By any means necessary, including death squads? Um, no, maybe some ethics are in order as well. In Mexico, I think it is fair to look at the drug gangs as terrorist organizations comparable to ISIS. Now, ISIS is one thing and the gangs are many different things, and their motives are different (ostensibly. I don’t personally believe ISIS is actually Muslim). But their goals and methods have a degree of overlap: -Some Mexican drug gangs chop people’s heads off, and they all generally terrorize the public at large. -They both seize and hold territory- someone posted a link upthread of a Mexican drug gang taking control of an entire province. -They both create war zones. The death toll in Mexico from drug violence now well tops 100,000, larger than the effing American death toll in Vietnam. You can’t tell me there isn’t a war in Mexico right now. So, if the ‘authorities’ in Iraq and Syria tell their populations, “Go ahead and shoot ISIS members. The police are working on it, but believe me, you have my support if you want to help defeat ISIS,” is that really so strange? The land has been conquered, it is a war zone, and the populace resists, kind of like the Poles did when the Nazis moved in. Ok. So, if the ‘authorities’ in Mexico tell the people in territory controlled by drug gangs, “Go ahead and shoot drug gang members. The police are working on it too, but believe me, you have our support in resisting these thugs,” is that really so strange? Isn’t this taking place in literally lawless, active-war-zone conquered territory? _Shouldn’t_ the populace resist if they can? Okay, so in the Philippines, drug activity has gotten so out of hand that things are simply too fucked up to tolerate. The government and the police have been punked by Asian drug cartels, which run rampage through the land at will for their own profit and at the Philippines’ expense. So, the president goes on TV and says, “Go ahead and shoot these drug dealers and I will give you a medal. Believe me, the police are working on it, but you are free to chip in if you can.” Is that really so strange? Things have devolved to a state of emergency over there. The problem with this line of thought is the relative severity of the problems. How do we even measure the severity of problems? I am going to introduce a unit for that: the _problemo_. If you’ve got 99 problemos but the bitch ain’t one, you have some work to do but it could be worse. For round numbers, let’s assign ISIS a value of 1,000,000,000 problemos. How many problemos do the Mexican drug gangs represent? How many does the Philippine drug problem represent? At what level of problemos does it become okay to basically embrace the present anarchy and participate in it, to achieve an end, namely mitigating the anarchy, driving out the hostile forces and restoring order? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/170 "2016-09-08T09:41:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Fewer lives than are being prior to him taking office. > > “Works” is lower crime rates. Are you willing to accept that principled argument being used in other contexts? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/171 "2016-09-08T13:37:43Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > :rolleyes: > > You throw out a stupid ridiculous example whereby a country like American would kill 3 million people a year to achieve the goal of reducing out of control crime rates and ask if that would be worth it. I never specified my goal beyond that it “works”. Whatever you imagined I meant is not my responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/172 "2016-09-08T13:54:47Z")
The OP keeps referring to the “it works” scenario as a hypothetical, so clearly we’re dealing with fantasy. Unless he wants to come out a assert that “it” is, in fact, working in the Phillipins. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/173 "2016-09-08T14:14:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So where are these multitudes of obvious examples from South america that only an ignoramous like me wouldn’t know about? Don’t be coy. Name them so we can compare them to Dutarte. Yep, you don’t know. And if you read again you would had notice that I did mention one. My old country is El Salvador. And that BTW does not take away the obvious European examples. They make a mockery to your idea that we should dismiss historical precedents as fantasy when they took place. As the fantasy implicates Mexico, we should not forget that a lot of the unrest that is happening there is as a result of using harsher solutions there against drug traffickers, resulting really in the traffickers corrupting local governments in Mexico because they also gained economical power thanks to that war. Yet another failure of the ongoing war on drugs. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/wJUXLqNHCaI/maxresdefault.jpg "Why The War on Drugs Is a Huge Failure") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJUXLqNHCaI) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/174 "2016-09-08T15:21:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You said 10,000 INNOCENT lives. That is not describing the facts on the ground that is hyperventilating. How do you know who is being killed or that they’re worse than the people doing the killing? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/175 "2016-09-08T19:11:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you willing to accept that principled argument being used in other contexts? :dubious: It seems like a generally decent principle. Would you like to direct me to another thread where we can continue this in a different context? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/176 "2016-09-08T19:22:26Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > The OP keeps referring to the “it works” scenario as a hypothetical, so clearly we’re dealing with fantasy. Unless he wants to come out a assert that “it” is, in fact, working in the Phillipins. The use of the word “if” doesn’t indicate fantasy. It indicates something that is possible but not certain. For example: “IF Hillary wins the election, will the Republicans refuse to vote on any of her SCOTUS nominees for her entire term?” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/177 "2016-09-08T19:50:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yep, you don’t know. > > And if you read again you would had notice that I did mention one. My old country is El Salvador. Once again I apologize again for my obvious and gross ignorance about Salvadoran politics. Which democratically elected Salvadoran President with 90% popularity ratings turned into a dictator? > [@](#): > > And that BTW does not take away the obvious European examples. They make a mockery to your idea that we should dismiss historical precedents as fantasy when they took place. When did I say we should dismiss history as fantasy? You just haven’t made the case AFAICT that this particular president who seems wildly popular in the Philippines will turn into a dictator. [quote] As the fantasy implicates Mexico, we should not forget that a lot of the unrest that is happening there is as a result of using harsher solutions there against drug traffickers, resulting really in the traffickers corrupting local governments in Mexico because they also gained economical power thanks to that war. Yet another failure of the ongoing war on drugs. [/QUOTE] So the answer to the drug problem in the Philippines is to decriminalize crystal meth? You sure that’s gonna work? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/178 "2016-09-08T20:05:11Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > How do you know who is being killed or that they’re worse than the people doing the killing? How do you know they’re not? Everybody is trying to add assumptions upon my assumption (that this results in a reduction of crime and fewer innocent deaths), assumptions like Dutaarte is going to become like hitler; or the killings are part of a massive power play by some favored drug cartel to wipe out all opposing drug cartels; and now the dead are relatively benign compared to the people that are killing them. If everyone insists on changing my hypothetical from “assuming it works” to assuming that its actually not working" then the obvious answer is of course Mexico should NOT try to implement a policy that is not working elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/179 "2016-09-08T20:20:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How do you know they’re not? Well, that’s kinda the problem with this whole situation. You keeps saying “if it works” but it’s very difficult to know what is going on when you have extrajudicial killings. You’re hypothetical is based on being able to determine success but you haven’t been able to articulate how we would know that. So, back to square one. How do we know if the extrajudicial killings in the Philippines works to control the drug violence and how do we measure whether is causing more or less damage over the long run than the problem it’s trying to solve? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748/180 "2016-09-08T20:48:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The use of the word “if” doesn’t indicate fantasy. It indicates something that is possible but not certain. For example: “IF Hillary wins the election, will the Republicans refuse to vote on any of her SCOTUS nominees for her entire term?” So is your scenario a hypothetical future? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-it-works-in-the-phillipins-should-mexico-try-the-same/763748.md?page=10)