Can we trust the accuracy of Chinese reports of the levels of drug use and abuse within their borders?
I disagree, changes are in motion. The US will be among the last of its peer nations, because it is a backward right-wing throwback, but it will happen sooner than you think.
If so, then he is stupid.
This gets back to what I asked earlier: is this about improving the Philippines, or not? Apparently it is not; it’s about consolidating power.
Higher supply, no risk. In the 1980s, VCRs and foreign movies were illegal in Romania. As a result, they were very expensive (about the same price as a car), and an elaborate system of smugglers, dubbers, and bribed officials existed to bring them into the country.
Meanwhile, you could buy VCRs and films in the countries the smugglers sourced them from, for MSRP. Why did a VCR cost as much as a car in Romania, and as much as a VCR elsewhere? There’s your answer.
Or did they? See posts #201 & 260.
History says otherwise.
Well, you’re entitled to your opinion but I don’t see us decriminalizing heroin, meth and cocaine anytime soon.
Or perhaps the President of the Philippines knows the Philippines and its problems better than you do.
Gaining popularity is not USUALLY what you refer to as “consolidating power” He is becoming popular because the people of the Philippines see what he is doing, they heartily approve and they think that his policies will improve their lives. By your rationale, Obama was “consolidating power” when he killed Osama bin Laden, lowered the unemployment rate and passed Obamacare.
Like I said, most of the drugs are heading to the USA, it is not intended for domestic use.
Yeah, they did. Its not all they did but executions were a big part of it.
So there was a death penalty associated with alcohol during prohibition? I must have missed that day in history class.
We’ll see. The ball is already rolling.
I’m sure that he understands that many Filipinos will support an authoritarian strongman, but drug criminalization causes the same problems everywhere. It’s nothing unique to the Philippines.
Consolidating power, in this case, means normalizing the murder of your enemies, threatening the legislature, threatening the judiciary, and threatening the press.
Is it not clear that I’m talking about what Mexico can do for its own benefit, not for the benefit of the US?
And hey presto, it didn’t eliminate drug use, or the problems associated with it. Who could have possibly predicted that???
History shows us that there would, in fact, still be bootleggers and speakeasies.
And maybe the 38 states that ratified the 21st Amendment knew the United States and its problems better than you do. If they did it, and it was popular, it must be correct, per your reasoning.
[Treasure island’s Jim Hawkins (1972)] (After the captain commented how proud he was on the crown executing criminals to set an example to others so as to stop crime)
Then why there are more executions now?
[/JH]
No, and history and the evidence shows this point is a red herring.
The effect of the death penalty on alcohol and drug use elsewhere is even less.
The point is that even in fiction that was noticed many years ago. So yes, that point about the death penalty regarding this issue was a red herring.
The point about how prohibition showed how the war against addiction does lead to unintended consequences stands.
For pot, yes. Any sign that its bleeding into any other areas? Because a lot of people see a difference between pot and heroin.
Right, Filipinos love their dictators :smack:
And he is doing it with the support of 90%+ of the population.
I’m saying that a large part of the drug violence in Mexico is because of US demand regardless of whether or not drugs are illegal in Mexico.
Except that it did until they stopped doing it then the problems came back.
Cite?
No, my reasoning is that you don’t seem to know anything about the Philippines but you seem pretty confident that something that worked on a relatively mild problem in Switzerland would work in the Philipppines. Sure enough that you are substituting your judgment for the judgment of 90% of Filipinos.
nm
Some cultures are more comfortable with authoritarian rule than others.
So, they do love their dictators?
The violence need not occur in Mexico. What would be the impetus? The US has demand for Mexican-built cars, where are the violent car cartels?
Cite?
GIGObuster already covered it in post 265.
Is there some principle that makes decriminalization work in country A, but not country B? Do you have any thoughts on decriminalization, other than that it won’t happen?
Wait so a quote from a work of FICTION is your cite? SERIOUSLY!?!?!
How does “history” show that?
So a blog by some intern from the Huffington Post is your cite? I suppose its better than Treasure Island. I’m not saying that correlation= causation but you see how crimes rose when they got rid of the death penalty and flattened out again when they reinstituted the death penalty.
If criminals didn’t really care about consequences and were really only concerned about getting caught, why would they ever leave witnesses? Why not just kill everyone they rob, rape or mug? Why leave a witness? Because the penalty for murder is a lot worse than the penalty for robbery.
The death penalty isn’t a perfect deterrent but it is pretty effective at stopping the executed drug dealer from dealing more drugs.
Fiction as a cite? The question of whether the death penalty has a deterrent effect is not resolved enough for you to call it a red herring. But I’m not married to the idea that the death penalty has a deterrent effect above and beyond long prison sentences.
And was there an effective death penalty in place for bootleggers? No? Then how is this relevant?
:rolleyes:
Of course not as you found later, that was only just to show how **even **great fiction gets the point that serious research shows.
And what you did with the blog is called “killing the messenger” the cites and links to the research from Columbia Law School’s Jeffrey Fagan are there for all to see.
Except you of course.
And the point was still missed: The point about prohibiting drugs or alcohol was that it causes unintended consequences and that point stands, the death penalty is not really a deterrent for this issue as serious researchers and the evidence pointed out, so it is the death penalty what you have failed to show as useful on dealing with this.
And so it follows why is it that international human rights and many other democratic groups are criticizing Duterte.
One of these things is not like the others.
The President of the Philippines was ELECTED a few months ago, noone has implied that this election was a fraud. Will Hillary be a dictator next June if she makes good on her election promises?
Are Mexican cars illegal in the USA?
Oh, so we DIDN’T have the death penalty during prohibition. But lets just pretend that an enforced death penalty for bootleggers wouldn’t have made a difference.
Mostly that it won’t happen. Proposing an idea that has no real chance of becoming policy is really just mental masturbation. But I also have doubts that decriminalization will work in places like El Salvador like they worked in Switzerland.
I pointed out that the crime rate went up when the death penalty was banned and levelled off when it was reinstituted. I don’t really know if the death penalty is a deterrent, criminologists say that it is not a deterent but they are usually thinking about crimes like murder rather than largely economic crimes like drug trafficking.
What I did with the blog was point out that he was presenting OPINION and his opinion as a huffington post intern doesn’t really add much weight to your argument.
Sure. I agree that criminalizing ANYTHING has unintended consequences. I agree that there is a consensus that the death penalty does not provide a deterrent for things like murder. I don’t know what criminologists think about the death penalty’s ability to deter things like drug trafficking.
The death penalty does a real good job at making sure that the drug traffickers stops trafficking drugs.
People are free to criticize him but its a stretch to say that he is a dictator in waiting with nothing but human rights abuses to point at. I mean shit, Bush Jr. had his share of human rights abuses and he wasn’t a dictator. He left the white house when his term was over.
That is indeed “killing the meesenger”, a logical fallacy. Once again anyone can see that you are not capable of dealing with the studies he cites and what the makers of the studies told Max Ehrenfreund who is a Reporter, but of course the intension is to call him a just “a blogger” as if that will discredit what he reported.
Well duh, what your “duh” omit is that that is also a given, what me and many point out is that others always take the place of the ones that they are executing. Your point here is a similar argument as “if the dog is dead, there is no rabies” forgetting that rabies is still out there being transmitted by other critters. As Iran and others continue to find out.
Since I don’t remember Bush killing drug traffickers as policy you are indeed comparing apples with dragon fruit. And I’m on the record of saying that if this was a fair world Bush the lesser should had been taken to a tribunal in The Hague.
So if Dutarte simply tortured the drug dealers and kept them in prison without a trial, you wouldn’t call him a dictator in waiting? Like i said, Bush did horrible shit too and he left the white house when his term was up. Why won’t Dutarte do the same? He is more popular than Bush ever was.
Yeah, one is Pew and the other is YouGov. And even the YouGov poll found support for not jailing first-time offenders, opposition to the war on drugs, etc. Like I said, the ball is rolling. Duterte might even hasten it along, with his crimes.
Depends on what those promises were, doesn’t it?
We all remember the corruption and violence in Hungary because VCRs were illegal in Romania, don’t we?
No measurements or data of any kind, I see.
It’d motivate more violence and corruption from the gangs, sure. Possibly even a Pablo Escobar style campaign of terror. It certainly wouldn’t end alcohol consumption.
Since only death squads are being used, I guess we can only discuss how great death squads are?
Yes, I would still call him a dictator in training.
The sad thing is that Duterte’s jails are torturing them too.
:rolleyes:
Lest see, what I did write was:
“if this was a fair world Bush the lesser should had been taken to a tribunal in The Hague.”
Dutarte deserves that and much more IMHO.
And you do continue to use the fallacy of the argumentum ad populum.
I am no fan of Duterte, but he’s only been in office for a couple of months while these inmates have in jail for years. Can’t pin this one on him; blame previous administrations.