# If Jeb Bush were elected POTUS in 2008 how many would consider moving to Canada? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481 "2005-01-19T02:37:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/41 "2005-01-20T14:55:43Z")
> [@Wile E](#): > > Jeb scares me more than Dubya. He’s slick, sneakier and harder to read. Environmentally he could be just a scosh better than Dubya, then again he’s slick so maybe not. That whole buying up of the oil-drilling contracts of the FL coast was just to help him win his second term so he could help Dubya win his second term. Maybe he’s sneakier, but he just doesn’t bother me as much. He seems a bit more genuine, and not nearly as dense. Even though I disagree with the majority of his politics, I do think that, in his own way, he cares about what happens to people. And he doesn’t have a stupid smirk on his face half of the time. I’d have much rather gone through the last four years with Jeb as prez instead of GW. So my main gripe in '08 would be “Bush fatigue”, not that I don’t already feel that now. Anyway, I think the point is moot because he’s said repeatedly that he _won’t_ run for POTUS in 2008. Some of the local pundits have chalked this up to the fact that he really can’t afford to. His family is wealthy but he is not. There is speculation that he’ll go back to private life for a while, build up some wealth, and then run in 2012, when he’ll be in his early 60s, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/42 "2005-01-20T16:29:06Z")
> [@RevCo](#): > > I think the same amount of people would move to Canada as did in 2000 and 2004 - 0. Makes for a good punchline and everyone “knows” someone who’s moving there, but nobody is. 0, eh? You know this for truth? My sister is teaching at an international school in Bali. She had a one year job contract, with an option to renew it for a couple more years if she so desired. She mentioned a while ago that if Bush was reelected, she probably would. She’s not coming back. No, it’s not Canada, and she was already over there, and enjoys her job enough that it wasn’t a terribly tough decision; but the election WAS a swing vote for her. And I know my sister’s not alone, in that there are other people out there with solid opportunities to stay out of the US for a while, and who are taking advantage of them BECAUSE of Bush. ---
**Author:** ![RevCo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@RevCo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RevCo)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/43 "2005-01-20T17:04:31Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > 0, eh? You know this for truth? > > My sister is teaching at an international school in Bali. She had a one year job contract, with an option to renew it for a couple more years if she so desired. She mentioned a while ago that if Bush was reelected, she probably would. > > She’s not coming back. > > No, it’s not Canada, and she was already over there, and enjoys her job enough that it wasn’t a terribly tough decision; but the election WAS a swing vote for her. And I know my sister’s not alone, in that there are other people out there with solid opportunities to stay out of the US for a while, and who are taking advantage of them BECAUSE of Bush. Well, you convinced me :rolleyes: She’s in Bali having a good time and doesn’t want to come back - and it’s the President’s fault? Please! Post here when she renounces her citizenship in the US of A - otherwise, the election was a convenient tool to help her make a decision, nothing more. There aren’t people fleeing to Canada because it was all election falderal is what I’m saying - not ripping on your sister, I’m sure she’s a good person, trying to help others and whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/44 "2005-01-20T18:26:04Z")
> [@RevCo](#): > > Well, you convinced me :rolleyes: You’re the one the posted the absolute statement of “I think the same amount of people would move to Canada as did in 2000 and 2004 - 0. Makes for a good punchline and everyone “knows” someone who’s moving there, but nobody is.” Your statement was called out, anecdotal evidence was offered. Either accept it and move on, or revise your original statement. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/45 "2005-01-20T18:37:45Z")
> [@RevCo](#): > > Well, you convinced me :rolleyes: > > She’s in Bali having a good time and doesn’t want to come back - and it’s the President’s fault? Please! Post here when she renounces her citizenship in the US of A - otherwise, the election was a convenient tool to help her make a decision, nothing more. There aren’t people fleeing to Canada because it was all election falderal is what I’m saying … Right, because people normally make their important life decisions in a vaccuum, based on one single overriding criterion. :rolleyes: yourself. You’re providing a narrow definition of “people leaving the country because of Bush.” I provided an anecdote of a person who is staying out of the country, who cited the current administration as a factor in her decision. I’m not sure what more you want. I can give you another if you like - my sweetie’s brother. He has dual citizenship with Canada. He could move there tomorrow, and is considering it (there are, of course, other factors). This is not a decision he’s making lightly; this is a man intimately familiar with fleeing home countries to escape oppressive regimes - his parents fled Ukraine to escape Stalin, who would have killed them for who they were and what they represented. His father tells of how he caught the last train out of Kiev. THE last train. No, despite the crack about “oppressive regimes” I don’t really intend to compare Bush to Stalin. I don’t believe Bush is that evil and I apologize for that. But I’m wondering (off on a slight tangent); how DO you know when it’s time to leave? Oppression doesn’t appear overnight. There’s a time to stay and work to change what’s happening in your country, and then there’s a time to get the hell out while you still have your head attached. Sweetie’s dad barely made it out in time, and that was _Stalin_ for pete’s sake, everybody knows the guy was EVIL! My point being, in restrospect it was obvious, but at the time it wasn’t. Many more of his victims might have left, if they’d known just how bad it was going to get. Different people are going to have different considerations for when it’s time to get out; undoubtedly some will leave earlier than they need to, and some will find that they’ve made their choice too late. Here we have stories of two rational people who have decided to make sure they have an escape hatch NOW, if it DOES get bad here. Insisting that they sever ALL ties, in order to fit your definition of “leaving the country because of Bush” is awfully drastic. Remember, they’re doing this in realtime, not retrospect; they both expect things to get better, but are prepared for the worst. Should I call them wimps for leaving their options open? When you make big decisions, do you not leave yourself options, in case of changing future events? I reiterate, you do not know all Americans’ minds and situations. To say no one has left the country citing Bush as a factor is false. ---
**Author:** ![RevCo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@RevCo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RevCo)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/46 "2005-01-20T20:59:47Z")
Moving to Canada does not equal Living in Bali and deciding to stay there. Moving to Canada does not equal **considering** moving to Canada from a Canadian with Dual Citizenship. Living in Bali and deciding to stay there because of the election does not equal anecdotal evidence people are moving to Canada. Read the OP again. The topic is “How many people would consider moving to Canada?” I responded in my opinion that none would - 0 - this isn’t general questions – this is IMHO and as such it was an opinion. You provide a story about how your sister that was interesting, but more or less shifted the focus to “people leaving the country because of Bush.” I just guessed your sister was renouncing her citizenship because you said, in stark terms, “She’s not coming back.” Now you say she’s one of two rational persons “who have decided to make sure they have an escape hatch NOW, if it DOES get bad here”. Which is it? However, I would be glad to ask in general questions “Is anyone leaving America for Canada because of the election?” And then if people have examples of people fleeing to Canada, they can point them out, and we can get a factual response. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/47 "2005-01-21T00:20:22Z")
If you thought George W. was the first sign of a Bush dynasty, you don’t know the family’s history. They have been major movers and shakers for several generations. George H.W.'s dad Prescott Sheldon Bush was a major investment banker, then a senator. Prescott’s dad Samuel Prescott Bush was a hotshot businessman before him. George W. Bush and his brother Jeb came about as close as an American can get to being born into royalty. If you want more, read _American Dynasty_ by Kevin Phillips. The comparison to the Kennedys is interesting, but they weren’t rich and powerful until Jack and Bobby’s dad Joe made his fortune. Getting back to the **original question,** Hell, no, I won’t go. I survived Nixon, Reagan, and George H.W… Why would Jeb drive me out? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/48 "2005-01-21T01:13:40Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > If you thought George W. was the first sign of a Bush dynasty, you don’t know the family’s history. They have been major movers and shakers for several generations. George H.W.'s dad Prescott Sheldon Bush was a major investment banker, then a senator. Prescott’s dad Samuel Prescott Bush was a hotshot businessman before him. George W. Bush and his brother Jeb came about as close as an American can get to being born into royalty. All the more reason to vote 'em out – didn’t we have a revolution against this sort of stuff? ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/49 "2005-01-21T05:53:46Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > All the more reason to vote 'em out – didn’t we have a revolution against this sort of stuff? Well, sure, but how can we vote 'em out if we move to Canada, eh? Besides, we’ve got a Drug Czar, so maybe royalists are coming back. I think this whole thread happened because **Roland Deschain** wants to get rid of all the liberals, that sneaky boots. ---
**Author:** ![Caiata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@Caiata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caiata)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/50 "2005-01-21T06:51:31Z")
I moved to Australia in 2003, with the intent to become a citizen here. I often joke that it’s because I read a TIME (or maybe NewsWeek?) interview with Jeb Bush where he mentioned he might run for presidency in 2008 (or maybe someone else mentioned it … I read it when I was getting my brakes fixed, it was better than some sappy woman’s magazine). Of course it’s really because I see a better life for myself here than back in the US. Nothing to do with politics - if I don’t like Bush, why flee to Howard? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/51 "2005-01-21T07:22:29Z")
Moving this from IMHO to Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/52 "2005-01-21T12:32:53Z")
BY 2008 my current obligations to stay in the US will be fulfilled, and I will be free to move elsewhere. Top on my list right now are Norway and England, but Canada is on it too. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/53 "2005-01-21T13:46:01Z")
**RevCo:** \*I think the same amount of people would move to Canada as did in 2000 and 2004 - 0. \* That made-up statistic is almost certainly wrong. From [migrationinformation.org](http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=279): > [@](#): > > On the basis of such material no one can predict the number of Americans who might eventually leave the United States in reaction to the 2004 election results, although American emigration to Canada increased slightly after the 2000 election. […] > > Emigration from the United States to Canada in response to political crises is not a new phenomenon. The numbers reached unprecedented levels during the decade spanning the Vietnam War after Canada developed an explicit policy of accepting draft resisters under then-Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau. […] > > Since September 11, 2001, the memory of the Vietnam-era draft dodgers has been resurrected. Although there is no military draft now in the United States, a small number of American soldiers have sought refugee status in Canada rather than be sent to Afghanistan or Iraq. […] > > It is impossible to estimate the numbers of Americans who have emigrated to Canada over the past four years for political reasons, or who will do so over the next four years. No government body keeps such statistics. > > Media coverage would suggest, however, that they now number in the hundreds, while those contemplating a move may number in the thousands. […] > > Although post-election media coverage has highlighted the many “liberal” Americans who are casting around for options in an increasingly socially conservative United States, the most significant political exodus recently is of those seeking rights on the grounds of sexual orientation. > > Opposition to the war has also motivated emigration, although the numbers, for the present, are much smaller than those from the gay and lesbian communities. Emphasis added. So while it’s true that for most people, talk of emigrating to Canada to escape life under Bush is nothing but hot air, there are indeed some people—significantly more than zero—who have actually done it. And if Bushist America becomes a more hostile environment for homosexuals in particular, as seems likely, more Americans will probably make the move. I concur with most posters, though, in thinking that there’s nothing about a Jeb Bush presidency in particular that would tip the scale for emigration. Except maybe its confirmation of this “dynastic presidency” trend we seem to have going here. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/54 "2005-01-21T14:43:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So while it’s true that for most people, talk of emigrating to Canada to escape life under Bush is nothing but hot air, there are indeed some people—significantly more than zero—who have actually done it. Minor nit: A few or several hundred is indeed more than zero, which wins you the point. But statistically speaking they are not _significantly_ more than zero when drawn from the pool of Kerry voters. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/55 "2005-01-21T16:01:10Z")
Quite true, **manny** , but IMO nothing that **RevCo** said indicates that he was actually using “zero” to mean “statistically indistinguishable from zero in comparison to the entire population of Kerry voters” rather than “literally zero in absolute numbers”. However, since it’s true that the word is ambiguous, I withdraw the term “significantly” and substitute “considerably”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/56 "2005-01-21T16:10:09Z")
(Moreover, I don’t think anyone’s ever imagined that the entire population of Kerry or Gore voters ever contemplated moving to Canada in protest of a Bush victory anyway. My link mentions that “[in] the twenty-four hours following George W. Bush’s victory in the American presidential election on November 2, 2004, the Canadian government’s Department of Citizenship and Immigration website received 115,016 hits, six times the average daily number, and double the previous record”. This would suggest that at most a few hundred thousand disgruntled anti-Bush voters were ever seriously considering emigration. Compared to **that** population, a few hundred people actually going through with the process is still a very small percentage, but it’s not statistically indistinguishable from zero.) ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/57 "2005-01-21T16:25:45Z")
I’m sort of with Shibboleth on this one. Just because his name is “Bush” doesn’t mean he would be as disappointing a leader (to me personally) as the other two were. He did tell Ward Connerly to shove it, right? He’s got that going for him. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/58 "2005-01-21T16:32:33Z")
> [@Roland Deschain](#): > > If Jeb Bush were elected POTUS in 2008 how many would consider moving to Canada? I think if Jeb gets elected, Canada will be nuked so the liberals can’t escape. 😉 [qoute]My favorite scenario would be Bill Clinton becoming a Republican, endorsing Jeb Bush (or Condi Rice) for President and then becoming Secretary of State (note that Clinton and President Bush have been very buddy, buddy lately I’m not so sure that Bill really wants Hillary to be President). [/QUOTE] My favorite scenario involves myself, Portia de Rossi and a bed made out of solid chocolate, but like yours, it’s not gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/59 "2005-01-21T16:46:01Z")
If you gotta work for a living you probably better move to Mexico. Hell take out citizenship and maybe your new president(Fox) can get you a good job in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/60 "2005-01-21T16:46:48Z")
**Cranky:** _Just because his name is “Bush” doesn’t mean he would be as disappointing a leader (to me personally) as the other two were._ However, his executive order to force continued life-support upon Floridian Terry Schiavo, who had remained in an [irreversible vegetative state for 13 years\*](http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/oct2003/flor-o31.shtml) against her own wishes (as her husband successfully argued in court), following pressure from her family and vocal religious-right organizations, was a pretty nasty maneuver, IMHO. A very Bushesque combination of high-handedness, opportunism, and theocratic pandering. This guy Jeb may not be significantly worse than his brother but I see no reason to think he’s any better. - Warning: quite partisan and inflammatory source, but the facts of the various court, legislative, executive, and medical decisions are not in dispute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481.md?page=4)