# If Jeb Bush were elected POTUS in 2008 how many would consider moving to Canada? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2005, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481 "2005-01-19T02:37:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/81 "2005-01-24T14:12:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is it that even during the height of irrational Clinton hatred from the far right, I never once heard any conservatives speculate about leaving the country? You might wish to learn about Canadian socitey in general and Canadian politics in particular to find an answer to your question. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/82 "2005-01-24T15:47:17Z")
So one possible reason is **Kimstu** ’s “there’s no where to go.” I’d offer the observation that conservatives tend to be more {patriotic | jingoistic | nationalistic} than liberals do, which makes them unlikely candidates to abandon the country. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/83 "2005-01-24T17:58:12Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > He’s not wealthy enough to take a 400k a year job! Sheesh those Bush kids are spoiled. I don’t think it’s even the campaign costs someone mentioend. Somewhere floating around here (I forget if it was GD, GQ or elsewhere) there was mention of the point that it can be expensive, out of pocket, to be POTUS. Certain standards must be maintained. Apparently this was a hardship on President Carter. Another thing to consider is that it’s a big difference between being governor of Florida vs President when it comes to the spotlight that’s shined on one’s family. Bush the Second has been able to keep his daughter’s _mostly_ shielded, but their problems are nothing compared to Bush’s daughter (Noelle?). Maybe he really doesn’t want to subject his kids to that. If so, then bully for him. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/84 "2005-01-25T14:30:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So one possible reason is **Kimstu** ’s “there’s no where to go.” Heh. Might be now where to go for a lot of people contemplating such a move. Canada welcomes immigrants – indeed, it’s their announced policy to grow their population through immigration. But they only want the right sorts of people. They’re really good about taking legitimate political refugees (unless they’re from Cuba), but other than that one has to earn one’s way into Canada. Alec Baldwin could buy his way in. An underemployed slacker who doesn’t speak French, has no family or job connections up there and no special skills? That guy’s pretty much stuck here. Which leads me to (further) soften my earlier (mild) criticism of **Kimstu** ’s use of ‘significant’ over ‘considerably.’ I think the number of hits on the Canadian immigration website is not probative, as it appeared in a lot of dirges across the blogosphere – one wouldn’t measure “interest” in a cause if a website were presented here as a cite and a lot of people clicked on it, because that’s what people do; they click on stuff. But on the other hand, the number of people immigrating to Canada could well be a small fraction of the number of people who _wish_ to immigrate there and are either turned down or don’t apply because they know they don’t have the points. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/85 "2005-01-25T17:47:03Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Maybe he’s sneakier, but he just doesn’t bother me as much… And he doesn’t have a stupid smirk on his face half of the time. I’d have much rather gone through the last four years with Jeb as prez instead of GW. Amen! All I could think in 2000 was, “NO! Jeb for President and George for First Brother, in the Roger Clinton/Billy Carter mold, and Neil for Second Brother, in the Donald Nixon mold. Whoever planned this just wasn’t thinking.” I don’t mind sneaky; I voted for Clinton TWICE. Just don’t give me STUPID. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![J.Vladimir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@J.Vladimir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J.Vladimir)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/86 "2005-01-26T19:45:15Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I’ve been reluctant to consider Canada. My distinct impression is many of them don’t much like us up there. I certainly can’t blame them, but I’m not sanguine about the prospect of living where I might be told I suck all the time. I seems there’s a significant risk of simply replacing one cultural problem with another. > > New Zealand, now, that’s a whole 'nuther thing. I really, really liked the Kiwis, and they really treated my wife and I with an almost absurd amount of hospitality and kindness. Beautiful country, wonderful people, socially liberal, with an independent streak (ANZUS, anyone?) that actually counts for something. Only trouble is, I’m a 20-hour journey, then, from all of my immediate family, who I cannot afford to move with me, even in the event I could swing the move myself. I’m resigned to being more-or-less stuck. It’s too bad, because I saw NZ as an ideal place to raise children; much more humane and sane than the US, free of the guns and predominance of conservative Christian madness. It’s a sincere regret of mine that I just cannot seem to find a way to move out that doesn’t hurt myself and my relations in the process. They most emphatically want me around (I discussed the idea with them, to ask them what they thought of it, since I do not wrestle with such concerns idly); and I certainly don’t want to be in a position where I can only see them maybe once every year or two years. That would be especially painful in the case of my nieces. > > ::sigh:: Canada? Maybe. It just seems to be not far-enough away. It’s someplace else, but close enough that the poison has infected it too, meaning they rightfully resent the condescending scorn their US neighbors show them, but sadly, that scorn perhaps has bred a generalized dislike\* in return that I just don’t want to deal with, if I don’t have to. > > \*I base this sentiment on the cold shoulder I’ve been shown both in Canada, and by Canadians abroad, when they recognized my nationality. Again, I really can’t blame the Canadians for feeling the way they do, but it’s not the kind of sentiment I’d gladly surround myself with. My wife and I just got back from New Zealand after a 3 week’s stay and it’s the 6th or 7th time i’ve visited since 1981 and it’s got it all, as far as were concerned. As a country, it just feels “right”, More Liberal Poliitcially than Canada, obviously better weather and an abundance of different climates in a country the size of Colorado. Religion, based upon my talking to a lot of Kiwis, barely registers on the matters meter. The number I got, seemed to be 10% of the population went to church, if that much. Being a rare 1st world country that is really off the beaten path was probably quite the burden 100 years ago, as far as distance goes, but it’s more of a redeeming quality nowadays, i’d suggest. The people are easily the friendliest group of folks, on average you are ever likely to meet in your travels on this good earth and crime is really not a concern. A 20 year old woman was murdered, somewhere around Wellington, when we were in Auckland and it made front page news for a good week. Imagine one murder getting that much press in The U.S. of A.? The people make up for their lack of dogma it seems by being the outdoorsiest lot you’ve ever seen and what a playground to do it in? we went hiking in The Southern Alps, Larger in size than The European Alps and walked on Glaciers emerging out of lush rainforests and enjoyed a world that is cherished by the occupants and it shows. New Zealand had a decision to make a few years back, whether to update it’s Fighter Planes of it’s Airforce, or go to plan B, which was to get rid of that part, that seems useless, as there wasn’t much range with the planes to go and to our American War Machine (A.W.M Copywright December 8th, 1941) breathing down their necks to buy them, they decided against it, as they were friends with everybody in the world and tourism was their 2nd biggest industry and expanding, as they have a Great Product to sell and seemingly pumped the Billion of so Dollars they would have spent on the planes into their tourism industry, which might be as good as any you’ve ever seen. An American can stay there 3 months w/o a visa and next year my wife and I are going to rent a house in Wanaka and see how living 1/4 of the time there feels. I am looking forward to it~ ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/87 "2005-01-26T20:56:05Z")
My wife and I spent a couple days in Wanaka, and found it heavenly. Perhaps my favorite part was a short hike up a little hill called Mt. Iron, with gorgeous views over the lakes all the way up to Mt. Aspiring. After a week of beating ourselves up on the Dusky Track, it was nice to get so much reward for so little effort. 🙂 A Kiwi invited us back to join him for a Tramp on the Rees-Dart and Routeburn Tracks in '06, and I think we may take him up on it. I’m considering saving up so we can be there at least a month again. And, yeah, my experience completely corroborates yours. I kept thinking to myself, can this place be real? Look all around: vast swaths of pristine nature, with an activist electorate protecting much of it (e.g. Lake Manapouri); a paucity of rabid Jesus Freaks and other such right-wing lunatics; legalized prostitution; excellent state-sponsored education, run by people who would look at you like you had two alien heads if the word “creationism” was mentioned in serious discussion; concerted and well-funded nation-wide efforts to preserve the indigenous culture after acknowledging centuries of colonialist abuses; and virtually no violent crime due, at least in part, to strict gun laws. Why, how could a Republican stand it? They’d be repulsed! Paradise on Earth! ---
**Author:** ![J.Vladimir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@J.Vladimir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J.Vladimir)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/88 "2005-01-26T21:43:55Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > My wife and I spent a couple days in Wanaka, and found it heavenly. Perhaps my favorite part was a short hike up a little hill called Mt. Iron, with gorgeous views over the lakes all the way up to Mt. Aspiring. After a week of beating ourselves up on the Dusky Track, it was nice to get so much reward for so little effort. 🙂 > > A Kiwi invited us back to join him for a Tramp on the Rees-Dart and Routeburn Tracks in '06, and I think we may take him up on it. I’m considering saving up so we can be there at least a month again. > > And, yeah, my experience completely corroborates yours. I kept thinking to myself, can this place be real? Look all around: vast swaths of pristine nature, with an activist electorate protecting much of it (e.g. Lake Manapouri); a paucity of rabid Jesus Freaks and other such right-wing lunatics; legalized prostitution; excellent state-sponsored education, run by people who would look at you like you had two alien heads if the word “creationism” was mentioned in serious discussion; concerted and well-funded nation-wide efforts to preserve the indigenous culture after acknowledging centuries of colonialist abuses; and virtually no violent crime due, at least in part, to strict gun laws. Why, how could a Republican stand it? They’d be repulsed! Paradise on Earth! It really got my wife’s and my motor running, thinking that this would be a a liberal’s nirvana, kinda if you were to flip the current bushinista administration over 180%, without waiting for perhaps a decade for it to say, actually happen. I’ve been on The Milford Track before and it’s nice, but this time around, I walked The Keppler Track out of Te Annu and walked up around 7 miles to break free of the rainforest canopy and into the alpine zone and was rewarded with one of the Best Mountain Views i’ve ever seen, a approx 300 degree panorama of mountain tops, Just Stunning! What I found interesting, was that on their $5.00 Bill Banknote, Perhaps the most famous New Zealander of his generation, Sir Edmund Hillary was on it, something that seldom gets done whilst that a living legend is still kicking and gives you some idea of their adoration for the outdoors~ ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/89 "2005-01-26T22:00:15Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > I’ve been reluctant to consider Canada. My distinct impression is many of them don’t much like us up there. I certainly can’t blame them, but I’m not sanguine about the prospect of living where I might be told I suck all the time. I seems there’s a significant risk of simply replacing one cultural problem with another. I think this depends on the person. My wife–born, raised, and educated in the USA–has found a little of this during her 10+ years of living and working in Canada. But it hasn’t discouraged her; rather, she sees it as a chance to show friends and co-workers that not all Americans are church-goin’, gun-totin’, Stars-and-Stripes-wavin’ sorts. And partly due to her efforts, most of our friends have come to see that what individual Americans are like in person isn’t necessarily the same as what is shown on TV or presented as American government policy. We do keep a few American traditions in our home. The Fourth of July is a nice day to go on a picnic or host friends for a backyard barbecue, and we always have a great US Thanksgiving meal, complete with plenty of TV football. But she has been equally willing to embrace Canadian traditions, and to try to learn about things she was never really exposed to growing up in the US, such as hockey and curling. And maybe that’s the thing. If you come here, accept that things will be somewhat different, show an interest in things Canadian, and try to understand the people and their concerns, you’ll be welcome. But if you come up here and present yourself as a church-goin’, gun-totin’, Stars-and-Stripes-wavin’ sort; and further, make fun of Canadian things (calling our currency “Monopoly money” is a good example of this), preface everything with “Y’know, back in the USA, we’ve got better \_\_\_\_\_ ,” and try to make your little corner of Canada into USA North, then you won’t be liked very much. Sure, we’ve got a few who see any American in Canada as a valid target of whatever ire that they bear towards the USA. But only a few. I think for the most part, we’re a pretty welcoming bunch towards those from anywhere who are friendly, curious, and want to come here and contribute in some way. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/90 "2005-01-26T22:03:30Z")
**Loopydude:** _A Kiwi invited us back to join him for a Tramp on the Rees-Dart and Routeburn Tracks in '06, and I think we may take him up on it._ Aw man **Loop** , you absolutely got to. I tramped the Routeburn in January '02 when I was down in NZ to attend the wedding of one of my students, and it was just fantabulous. (And I say that after having factored in the lacerated knee I got on the first day out crossing a stream—watch your footing!) **Loopydude:** \* vast swaths of pristine nature, with an activist electorate protecting much of it (e.g. Lake Manapouri); a paucity of rabid Jesus Freaks and other such right-wing lunatics; legalized prostitution; excellent state-sponsored education, run by people who would look at you like you had two alien heads if the word “creationism” was mentioned in serious discussion; concerted and well-funded nation-wide efforts to preserve the indigenous culture after acknowledging centuries of colonialist abuses; and virtually no violent crime due, at least in part, to strict gun laws. Why, how could a Republican stand it? \* Paradoxically, though—or maybe I mean, elegantly—the Kiwis’ sense of social solidarity and environmental responsibility has not impeded, nor been undermined by, a substantial shift some years ago away from a more centralized government and towards freer markets. Everybody should read the most interesting talk given in 1996 by Donald Brash, the Governor of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand, to the Institute of Economic Affairs in London as the [Fifth Annual Hayek [!] Memorial Lecture](http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/speeches/0031201.html). He discusses the market liberalizations (particularly in the labor market), reduced taxation, and cuts in government staff and bureaucracy. Can you imagine? Free markets **and** strong environmental regulation! Universal health coverage **and** lower tax rates! Government pensions and income supports **and** reduced unemployment! Renewable energy investments **and** a highly developed economy with a booming tourist trade! Not only do they have the social and economic protections that liberals seek, but they managed to preserve them without falling into the gloomy, sovietized, impoverished bureaucratic state that conservatives are so frightened of! As Brash astutely remarks, > [@](#): > > Perhaps after all Perigo was partly right when he said that New Zealand was `a country reformed by Hayekians, run by pragmatists and populated by socialists'? My own hunch is that, probably in common with the citizens of other western countries, New Zealanders accept that socialism doesn't work in the economy, but remain wedded to the welfare state and a Fabian notion of `fairness’. The 1995 and 1996 budgets both included quite significant increases in public spending on health and education, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the tax-transfer system has lost any of its legitimacy. New Zealanders still instinctively regard the state as the primary, if not the only, supplier of welfare services of all kinds. And yet they can still implement market reforms where it makes economic sense. Hard-headed liberals whose plans actually work—the conservatives’ worst nightmare! No wonder Republicans won’t go there! (At least I hope they won’t, I’d like to visit again and I don’t want a bunch of anti-environment conservatives littering their candy wrappers all over the place. :p) All right, how did we all get talking about New Zealand in a thread about emigrating to Canada? Focus, people. ---
**Author:** ![J.Vladimir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@J.Vladimir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J.Vladimir)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/91 "2005-01-26T22:24:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **Loopydude:** _A Kiwi invited us back to join him for a Tramp on the Rees-Dart and Routeburn Tracks in '06, and I think we may take him up on it._ > > Aw man **Loop** , you absolutely got to. I tramped the Routeburn in January '02 when I was down in NZ to attend the wedding of one of my students, and it was just fantabulous. (And I say that after having factored in the lacerated knee I got on the first day out crossing a stream—watch your footing!) > > **Loopydude:** \* vast swaths of pristine nature, with an activist electorate protecting much of it (e.g. Lake Manapouri); a paucity of rabid Jesus Freaks and other such right-wing lunatics; legalized prostitution; excellent state-sponsored education, run by people who would look at you like you had two alien heads if the word “creationism” was mentioned in serious discussion; concerted and well-funded nation-wide efforts to preserve the indigenous culture after acknowledging centuries of colonialist abuses; and virtually no violent crime due, at least in part, to strict gun laws. Why, how could a Republican stand it? \* > > Paradoxically, though—or maybe I mean, elegantly—the Kiwis’ sense of social solidarity and environmental responsibility has not impeded, nor been undermined by, a substantial shift some years ago away from a more centralized government and towards freer markets. Everybody should read the most interesting talk given in 1996 by Donald Brash, the Governor of the Reserve Bank of New Zealand, to the Institute of Economic Affairs in London as the [Fifth Annual Hayek [!] Memorial Lecture](http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/speeches/0031201.html). He discusses the market liberalizations (particularly in the labor market), reduced taxation, and cuts in government staff and bureaucracy. > > Can you imagine? Free markets **and** strong environmental regulation! Universal health coverage **and** lower tax rates! Government pensions and income supports **and** reduced unemployment! Renewable energy investments **and** a highly developed economy with a booming tourist trade! Not only do they have the social and economic protections that liberals seek, but they managed to preserve them without falling into the gloomy, sovietized, impoverished bureaucratic state that conservatives are so frightened of! As Brash astutely remarks, > And yet they can still implement market reforms where it makes economic sense. Hard-headed liberals whose plans actually work—the conservatives’ worst nightmare! No wonder Republicans won’t go there! (At least I hope they won’t, I’d like to visit again and I don’t want a bunch of anti-environment conservatives littering their candy wrappers all over the place. :p) > > All right, how did we all get talking about New Zealand in a thread about emigrating to Canada? Focus, people. I might have continued it a bit, as I view Canada (my Mom is Canadian) as a quieter and more liberal version of us, and a Decent Place albeit a bit dull, in many places, as compared to New Zealand, which is a Much Better Location, as it doesn’t have the married at the hip on the 49th parallel feeling that comes with the territory, in being Canada, and New Zealand has so much more to offer, in terms of climate, beauty and contrast. ---
**Author:** ![EvanS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@EvanS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvanS)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481/92 "2005-01-27T01:21:43Z")
Looking at the history of the presidency, I think we should be more concerned with the prospect of one of W’s daughters becoming POTUS after a few messed up Democratic regimes. First the Father, then the Son, then… the Daughter! SEvan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jeb-bush-were-elected-potus-in-2008-how-many-would-consider-moving-to-canada/285481.md?page=4)