# If Jesus Could Heal the Sick and Raise the Dead **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2007, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211 "2007-01-24T07:18:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/81 "2007-01-25T19:53:21Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Because it’s a ridiculous belief that people follow, and kill and oppress other people over. Open a thread asking “What if blacks really were inferior ?” or "What would society be like if women really were less intelligent than men ?"and watch how fast _those_ threads get derailed. [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t that just be a sign of prejudice or fear on the part of the “derailers”? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/82 "2007-01-25T19:54:37Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Because it’s a ridiculous belief that people follow, and kill and oppress other people over. Open a thread asking “What if blacks really were inferior ?” or "What would society be like if women really were less intelligent than men ?"and watch how fast _those_ threads get derailed. [/QUOTE] Then how come you didn’t respond in a similar fashion in the “What if the Earth was a cube?” thread **Sabo** mentioned? Isn’t that just as ridiculous? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/83 "2007-01-25T20:36:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] Wouldn’t that just be a sign of prejudice or fear on the part of the “derailers”? [/QUOTE] I’d call it well justified cynicism. [QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] Then how come you didn’t respond in a similar fashion in the “What if the Earth was a cube?” thread **Sabo** mentioned? Isn’t that just as ridiculous? [/QUOTE] Did you actually read what I said ? The idea that the Earth is a cube is _not_ a “belief that people follow, and kill and oppress other people over.” Or did I miss the Cubist Crusades in history class ? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/84 "2007-01-25T20:53:00Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Did you actually read what I said ? The idea that the Earth is a cube is _not_ a “belief that people follow, and kill and oppress other people over.” Or did I miss the Cubist Crusades in history class ? [/QUOTE] Certainly it’s not. However, it seems to be just as ludicrous in your worldview as Christianity (or religion in general, for that matter) is, at least from my perspective. So why save all your hostility for threads where a few theists want to discuss some minutae of their beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/85 "2007-01-25T21:00:18Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] First, that’s incredibly insulting, but I’ve learned to expect no better from Christians. Second, morality is no harder for non-Christians to grasp than anyone else. [/QUOTE] Let me clarify my point, perhaps you won’t feel so insulted. I am not saying that only Christians have morals, just the source of the morality is a bit different then what we commonly think of as moral values. It comes from service to our king. This service part of morals is what I think is sometimes hard for nonbelievers to grasp. Again this doesn’t mean that others don’t have morals. It’s the morals that are derived from service to Christ, service to Christ our king is primary, morals are just what comes along with that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/86 "2007-01-25T21:08:47Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] However, it seems to be just as ludicrous in your worldview as Christianity (or religion in general, for that matter) is, at least from my perspective. So why save all your hostility for threads where a few theists want to discuss some minutae of their beliefs? [/QUOTE] One. More. Time. The idea that the Earth is a cube is _not_ a belief that people follow, and kill and oppress other people over. That’s what I care about, far more than the ridiculousness of a particular idea. [QUOTE=kanicbird] Let me clarify my point, perhaps you won’t feel so insulted. I am not saying that only Christians have morals, just the source of the morality is a bit different then what we commonly think of as moral values. It comes from service to our king. This service part of morals is what I think is sometimes hard for nonbelievers to grasp. [/QUOTE] It’s not “difficult to grasp”; it’s not there to grasp. Doing something because you are told to is amoral, not moral. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/87 "2007-01-25T21:10:01Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I’d call it well justified cynicism. [/QUOTE] I am going to need a better explanation for that choice of terms. I don’t see how a hypothetical can ellicit cynicism. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/88 "2007-01-25T21:12:48Z")
[QUOTE= Lord Ashtar] Then how come you didn’t respond in a similar fashion in the “What if the Earth was a cube?” thread [Sapo] mentioned? Isn’t that just as ridiculous? [/QUOTE] The sad thing is that there were those kinds of reponses in that thread. We had no shortage of people jumping in to just to insult the idea, talk about magical spells and the whole thing. Still, quite measured if you compare it to what happens in religious threads. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/89 "2007-01-25T21:27:04Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] I am going to need a better explanation for that choice of terms. I don’t see how a hypothetical can ellicit cynicism. [/QUOTE] Because such “hypotheticals” are often a vehicle for pushing a particular irrational belief without getting instantly dismissed as irrational, or just spout off on them. I see that sort of thing fairly often here with creationists; they post a “debate” question that’s really just an excuse for them to witness. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/90 "2007-01-25T21:36:43Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Serving myself is serving myself, not serving Satan [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Matthew 12:30 (first part)] He that is not with me is against me;… [/QUOTE] Note: I only used the first verse of the above words of Jesus - Reason: Clarity I’m not in a position right now to show that serving one’s self = serving Satan, but I believe that can be done. But even serving oneself is not serving God, and this puts you against God. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Now that is simply grotesque. And you think we should follow a creature who thinks like this ? [/QUOTE] Why grotesque? Why should someone who masturbated as their only sin get eternal life at all? What’s magical about masturbation as one’s only sin that it keeps them from eventually dieing? Shouldn’t all humans die eventually? > [@](#): > > It still doesn’t make any sense that Jesus or anyone could stand in for us for our “sins”; punishing someone else can’t possibly make up for anything I have done Do you accept the concept that sins must be repaid? > [@](#): > > God is omnipotent, and can therefore change his mind any time he likes God created the entire universe, and why should He change it for you? Again I think many miss the point of a omnipotent God, what we think of as omnipotent is our human construct. > [@](#): > > And “The Word is the Son” makes no sense. It comes from [QUOTE=John 1:1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [/QUOTE] Where the word ‘Word’ refers to Jesus. I too struggle with this wording, but it seems like the Word of God is very powerful, and a part of God Himself. > [@](#): > > So, Jesus suffers, an evil god gets to gloat over the suffering of his own son, and this puts the universe in balance ? I think Satan was the one gloating over this. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/91 "2007-01-25T22:31:34Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] I’m not in a position right now to show that serving one’s self = serving Satan, but I believe that can be done. But even serving oneself is not serving God, and this puts you against God. [/quote] Of course; God is evil; a tyrant who demands grovelling, self hatred and servitude. Anyone with any decency or spine is against God, even if they think they are not. Decency and spine contradict everything God is about. [QUOTE=kanicbird] Why grotesque? Why should someone who masturbated as their only sin get eternal life at all? What’s magical about masturbation as one’s only sin that it keeps them from eventually dieing? Shouldn’t all humans die eventually? [/quote] It’s grotesque because it equates mass murder with harmless fun. If God demands we not masturbate, that’s just another example of God’s evil. Masturbation shouldn’t disqualify anyone from anything. And, no, humans shouldn’t die; that’s an example of our poor design. [QUOTE=kanicbird] Do you accept the concept that sins must be repaid? [/quote] That depends on the circumstances, and in any case no one can do so for anyone else. [QUOTE=kanicbird] God created the entire universe, and why should He change it for you? [/quote] Because he did a poor job, assuming he actually existed. [QUOTE=kanicbird] I think Satan was the one gloating over this. [/QUOTE] Why ? Satan had nothing to do with it; it was all God’s idea. and Satan is just God’s flunky and fall guy anyway. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/92 "2007-01-25T23:03:30Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] That depends on the circumstances, and in any case no one can do so for anyone else. [/QUOTE] Why can’t your king decide to pay your debt for you? As long as the Father is made whole, what’s the difference to Him who pays? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/93 "2007-01-25T23:10:39Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Why can’t your king decide to pay your debt for you? [/quote] Because he’s not me, assuming I had a King. [QUOTE=kanicbird] As long as the Father is made whole, what’s the difference to Him who pays? [/QUOTE] No one was made whole by the crucifixion, and the idea that killing his son relived God from a self imposed debt is silly. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/94 "2007-01-26T00:51:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] Since the thread has been thoroughly hijacked by non-pizza-eaters, I will just say that this is just like the question of why does the mirror reverse left to right but not up to down. [/QUOTE] [hijack] It does if your mirror is a spoon [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/95 "2007-01-26T00:55:13Z")
Perhaps He wanted to be ahead of the whole body modification trend by a few thousand years? ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/96 "2007-01-26T00:57:40Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Because such “hypotheticals” are often a vehicle for pushing a particular irrational belief without getting instantly dismissed as irrational, or just spout off on them. I see that sort of thing fairly often here with creationists; they post a “debate” question that’s really just an excuse for them to witness. [/QUOTE] It sounds like you are just preempting any possible discussion about anything that might contradict your particular point of view. If the opposing view is so blatantly wrong, you should be able to shoot it down in no time and further affirm the validity of your position. It is the whole “creationists don’t deserve a debate at all” position. I think quite the opposite, the more they talk the deeper they sink in their own crap. Let them show the world the insanity of their position. Unless, of course, you worry they could beat you at the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/97 "2007-01-26T01:15:06Z")
[QUOTE=Rucksinator] [hijack] It does if your mirror is a spoon [/hijack] [/QUOTE] it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/98 "2007-01-26T01:19:11Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] It is the whole “creationists don’t deserve a debate at all” position. I think quite the opposite, the more they talk the deeper they sink in their own crap. Let them show the world the insanity of their position. Unless, of course, you worry they could beat you at the debate. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Isn’t it the whole point of your argument that we “pizza haters” _shouldn’t_ debate ? Basically, you are saying that we are hijackers if we argue, and cowards if we don’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/99 "2007-01-26T01:21:23Z")
The thing I wonder about is how the Romans reacted? “Jumpin’ Jupiter! We just nailed this guy three days ago and he’s walking around? WTF?” ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211/100 "2007-01-26T01:52:15Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] :rolleyes: Isn’t it the whole point of your argument that we “pizza haters” _shouldn’t_ debate ? Basically, you are saying that we are hijackers if we argue, and cowards if we don’t. [/QUOTE] hijackers when you argue if it is not relevant and cowards if you don’t when asked to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-could-heal-the-sick-and-raise-the-dead/389211.md?page=6)