# If Jesus had a wife, would that change anything? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337 "2012-09-20T23:55:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/81 "2014-04-12T12:24:30Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I really, really, really wish that people would quit trying to force modern usages onto other times and cultures. One can infer anything they wish, but if one doesn’t look at things as we do today there would be even more to Debate. It seems some see what they want to see. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/82 "2014-04-12T12:57:22Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Here’s the problem I’d have with it: if Jesus is God Incarnate, here for a very limited time on a particular mission, and he gets married…that’s sure a big diversion from his mission. It just doesn’t _fit._ > > I mean, I’m married and have a son, but that isn’t a _distraction_ from my real mission in life; it’s the better part of what my life _is all about_. That’s my _calling_. > > If one buys into this crazy Christianity stuff, it’s hard to see Jesus’ mission (can’t call it a ‘calling’ because per Christian belief, he wasn’t ‘called’ by God, he was and is God) as anything less than all-consuming, from his baptism by John forward. And it’s one thing to leave behind your parents and siblings (if you’re Protestant) and kin for one’s all-consuming mission, but it’s a very different thing to leave one’s _wife_ behind. > > It suggests it was a bad choice to have made that commitment in the first place - and presumably Jesus would have understood who he was, and what he was ultimately going to be doing, for his adult life. (Certainly one Biblical story suggests that he was starting to grasp the idea by age 12.) > > And it seems improbable that his wife wouldn’t be mentioned if Jesus brought her along on his ministry, especially in the accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection, stories which name Mary his mother, Mary Magdalene, and a number of other women as well. Heck, Mary his mother wasn’t along on his ministry, but she was there for the concluding act, according to the Bible. So why wasn’t his wife there? > > No, I just can’t make it fit. It doesn’t make sense to me with respect to who I believe Jesus to be, and it doesn’t make sense in the context of the Bible. All true, but none of he canonical gospels make a point of saying that he wasn’t married, which would have been a pretty big deal at the time. It seems to be more an issue of thinking that sex is dirty-- hence the problems people have with him even having siblings. At any rate, my point was that if he had children, that would present all sorts of problems that him being married wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/83 "2014-04-12T15:32:02Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Here’s the problem I’d have with it: if Jesus is God Incarnate, here for a very limited time on a particular mission, and he gets married…that’s sure a big diversion from his mission. It just doesn’t _fit._ It fits if part of his mission is to experience life as a human. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/84 "2014-04-12T16:05:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It fits if part of his mission is to experience life as a human. Look at it this way: Did Jesus shit? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/85 "2014-04-12T16:11:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Is it this level (in your opinion) at which syncretism of myth occurred? One might almost expect identifying Jesus with some Hellenic or pagan god, and then marrying Him off to his consort goddess, like happened with Zeus and the other gods as their adherents encountered/conquered other peoples with other gods. Probably not. This is outside my little bubble of expertise, so get the salt ready. I know of no evidence that identifies Jesus with an Olympian. He was a person, walked on earth, healed the sick, performed miracles, etc. There is tons of evidence that identifies him with Asclepius and there certainly was a lot of early confusion between Jesus and the Mithraic sun god. The kind of life Jesus lived, a wandering healer and preacher, was already quite well-established in antiquity, so it would have been easy to apply the boilerplate to Jesus and get some of the details confused. > [@](#): > > There I was luckier in my later church history professors than for the history of the early church. My later church history professor was the best kind of teacher - absolutely in love with his subject, and eager to the point of fanaticism to get over to us how wonderful it was. And he was full of anecdotes about these bizarre figures and their machinations and the backdrop of the times. Great stuff. > > I remember my professor saying much the same thing. It was triggered by a discussion of _Athanasius contra mundem_ and the history of Arianism, and the violent disagreements over _homoousion_ and _homoiousion_. All that fighting over one vowel. :eek: Heh, and here I thought I came up with that approach. 🙂 Part of the fascination for the subject comes from the sources. We have extraordinarily detailed records from the Council of Chalcedon. It’s probably the best documented few days in antiquity altogether. The whole conflict really comes alive when you read about all of the arm-twisting, the bishops denouncing each other, and the passion that they really brought to this conflict. One of the Cappadocian fathers, Gregory of Nyssa IIRC, complains in a letter that he couldn’t go _anywhere_ without someone offering an opinion on the nature of Christ. He specifically mentions how irritating it was that he got pestered at the dry cleaner and the bathhouse. > [@](#): > > Anyway, I am grateful to you for your insights. And let us know when you are published - I for one would love to read it. Ha, sure. My work is in social history, specifically official justice and dispute resolution in Roman Egypt. I’ve got to get some of these projects on editors’ desks before I go on the market. When that’s done, I will certainly crow about it. > [@md2000](#): > > Aslan makes some interesting points.The land at the time was full of messiahs (why do keep hearing lines from \*Life of Brian \*in my head?); messiah at the time simply meant deliverer, i.e. from the Herod and Roman domination and their corruption of the temple heirachy. This is true. Judea was in some ferment at this time. Things didn’t get much better: the Jews were in open revolt by AD 66 > [@](#): > > The Essenes professed celibacy over marriage, so the question to me is - how early did Jesus drop tools and start following a nutbar wandering preacher across the Jordan valley? That is the key question. If he had his conversion early, no marriage. If he had spent a decade or more (age what - 14 to 29?) as a laborer, then it would be surprising if he did not marry. Then, if he saw his calling, he would do what so many mortal men had done before and since - drop everything including family and walk away. The problem is that it presumes that Jesus was basically average until he wasn’t. First, men married much later than women. The figures for Egypt are much stronger due to surviving census data, but I doubt there was too much difference. A woman might marry at 14, but her husband would be at least 10 years older than her, frequently more. If we are going to say that Jesus was ordinary until his conversion, then there is a good chance his wife simply died. Again, going by the numbers from Egypt, ~25% of women could be expected to reach the age of 20 from birth. (My book is not handy, so I am going from memory) There was a huge die-off after the first pregnancy. So even if he was married, it would have been a safe bet that she was dead before he started his grand tour. > [@](#): > > I suppose the other question is, was there an oral or underground tradition of some sort in the Coptic church about Jesus being married? Why would this be written down? As a “herectic splitter group”(?) according to mainline (Roman) Christianity, how active were the Egyptian authorities in tracking down and suppressing dissident points of view? Would it be logical for a person in 400 or 800 AD to have such a text? (Of course by 800AD wouldn’t Egypt be Muslim and so official suppression of dissident Christian texts would be minimal?) It wasn’t the Coptic Church then. It was just the church. The official split probably occurred after the text was recorded. It would have been written down like any of the other Gospels later determined apocryphal: someone thought it was worth copying. We really don’t know enough about what people believed at the local level to determine how active the Roman authorities could have been. Nor can we say just how offensive alternative traditions would have been to other Egyptians. The Chalcedonian formula was clearly offensive, but that was as much political as anything else. As long as this group was solidly Miaphysite and anti-Chalcedonian, I really couldn’t say how much their neighbors would have cared. The Roman government was really wary to get involved in these kinds of issues because they were political minefields. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/86 "2014-04-12T18:55:52Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Here’s the problem I’d have with it: if Jesus is God Incarnate, here for a very limited time on a particular mission, and he gets married…that’s sure a big diversion from his mission. It just doesn’t _fit._ I agree with this sentiment from my current viewpoint. But if I think about it from the other side, we’d have an equally good fit for a Jesus who got married. Right now, we say Jesus didn’t marry because the church is his bride and he needed to be focused on his mission. But if he had married, we’d say “See, Jesus knows how to care for his church because he demonstrated that with an Earthly bride.” If you grew up using that explanation, then an unmarried Jesus would seem like something that didn’t fit. However… I think I would be upset to learn that Jesus married a woman who was a disciple. To me, that smacks too much of the televangelist sleeping with his secretary kind of scenario. The teacher/disciple relationship is not one that should include sex. I’d feel the same way about a modern pastor marrying a church member. If you’re a pastor with spiritual authority over someone, the relationship needs to stop at pastor/churchgoer. Even if no abuse of power was actually involved, there’s too much potential for abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/87 "2014-04-12T19:17:32Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > We really don’t know enough about what people believed at the local level to determine how active the Roman authorities could have been. Nor can we say just how offensive alternative traditions would have been to other Egyptians. The Chalcedonian formula was clearly offensive, but that was as much political as anything else. As long as this group was solidly Miaphysite and anti-Chalcedonian, I really couldn’t say how much their neighbors would have cared. The Roman government was really wary to get involved in these kinds of issues because they were political minefields. While working today I found a piece by the excellent Caroline Humfress on this issue, called “Citizens and Heretics” in a coauthored volume _Heresy and Identity in Late Antiquity_. This piece has the view from the late Roman lawyers, which would have been different than the situation on the ground, especially in the provinces. But it’s shared on academia.edu, so you can search for it, log in through Facebook or Gmail, and read the paper if you like. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/88 "2014-04-12T20:17:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look at it this way: > > Did Jesus shit? Of course - but it did not stink. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/89 "2014-04-12T21:08:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It fits if part of his mission is to experience life as a human. Jesus only spent 33 years on this planet, according to the official timeline. I didn’t get married until I was 37. Did I not experience life as a human during those first 37 years? Sure seemed like it to me. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/90 "2014-04-13T01:13:04Z")
In the news this month we are have a somewhat comparable situation in the political world, where Narendra Modi, favored in polls to be the next prime minister of India, turns out to be a wedded man: > **[Why did Narendra Modi keep his wife secret for almost 50 years?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/04/10/why-did-narendra-modi-keep-his-wife-secret-for-almost-50-years/)** > > "I am single, who will I be corrupt for?" he told a campaign rally in February. If you read the link above, you’ll see some possible parallels. Modi is supposed, in the eyes of his supporters, to be more devoted to India because he doesn’t have competing family loyalties. Should Modi lose, we’l have a bit of evidence that the answer to the thread title question is yes. But, more likely, Modi will win :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/91 "2014-04-13T02:58:30Z")
Modi’s been in The Economist several times over the past year, so I’ve kind of had my eye on him. What is shocking is that more people seem to be getting upset about this than about his complicity in sectarian violence, but we live in a crazy world. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/92 "2014-04-13T11:06:41Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > One can infer anything they wish, but if one doesn’t look at things as we do today there would be even more to Debate. It seems some see what they want to see. I guess that is why the Christian Religion is so divided. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/93 "2014-04-13T12:42:45Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > What is shocking is that more people seem to be getting upset about this than about his complicity in sectarian violence . . . Well, my negative emoticon was about the latter. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/94 "2014-04-13T22:20:37Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > My work is in social history, specifically official justice and dispute resolution in Roman Egypt. A bit divergent, but I’ll never get a better chance to ask: Have your studies yielded any evidence of a Roman custom, at any time or place, that allowed the mob to give the condemned criminal of its choice a “get out of jail free” card, as in the tale of Barabbas? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/95 "2014-04-13T22:39:38Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > A bit divergent, but I’ll never get a better chance to ask: Have your studies yielded any evidence of a Roman custom, at any time or place, that allowed the mob to give the condemned criminal of its choice a “get out of jail free” card, as in the tale of Barabbas? I’ve never come across anything like that, but then again, there are very few historical accounts of Roman justice at work. Most of the evidence I work with are written petitions to magistrates, so we rarely get to see how they turned out. Sometimes we have written records of trial proceedings. One especially juicy one records that the governor ordered a petitioner to be flogged, probably because of the triviality of his legal action. You can certainly find mob justice and riot in the Acts of the Pagan Martyrs (Acta Alexandrinorum). ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/96 "2014-04-13T22:53:21Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Sometimes we have written records of trial proceedings. One especially juicy one records that the governor ordered a petitioner to be flogged, probably because of the triviality of his legal action. I often think that would be a good way to cut down on frivolous lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/97 "2014-04-13T23:28:39Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I often think that would be a good way to cut down on frivolous lawsuits. You might think that, but looking at the evidence suggests otherwise. This is actually what I am writing my dissertation about, but since it has nothing to do with Jesus, I will spare you the details. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/98 "2014-04-14T01:01:07Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > In the news this month we are have a somewhat comparable situation in the political world, where Narendra Modi, favored in polls to be the next prime minister of India, turns out to be a wedded man: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/04/10/why-did-narendra-modi-keep-his-wife-secret-for-almost-50-years/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/04/10/why-did-narendra-modi-keep-his-wife-secret-for-almost-50-years/) > > If you read the link above, you’ll see some possible parallels. Modi is supposed, in the eyes of his supporters, to be more devoted to India because he doesn’t have competing family loyalties. > > Should Modi lose, we’l have a bit of evidence that the answer to the thread title question is yes. > > But, more likely, Modi will win :mad: I don’t know if the situation is comparable at all, it appears that Modi’s was an arranged marriage when he was 18, they were separated when he was 21 and it hasn’t been a marriage for over 30 years. His being wifeless isn’t much of a big deal for anyone in India either. He’s mentioned it once or twice in the hundreds of campaign speeches that he gives, as support for his incorruptibility. As a side note, could you explain your :mad: smiley on the prospect of his becoming PM? I’ve encountered similar sentiment before on the board, but believe it’s misplaced. ETA: Sorry, I see that complicity in sectarian violence is your reason. Do you have any evidence that he was complicit? Because India’s courts don’t. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/99 "2014-04-14T01:08:45Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Modi’s been in The Economist several times over the past year, so I’ve kind of had my eye on him. What is shocking is that more people seem to be getting upset about this than about his complicity in sectarian violence, but we live in a crazy world. If you’re judging based off Economist articles, I’d advise you not to. They’re really quite bad. The latest one in which the Economist withholds its endorsement for his candidacy for instance, is such poorly argued and openly biased tosh that I was surprised to read it. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337/100 "2014-04-14T01:22:35Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > If you’re judging based off Economist articles, I’d advise you not to. They’re really quite bad. The latest one in which the Economist withholds its endorsement for his candidacy for instance, is such poorly argued and openly biased tosh that I was surprised to read it. Of course it was biased. It was an opinion piece. But anyway, the reasons why it may or may not make a difference are quite different in this case. Jesus did not stake any particular claims on not being married. We might care in posterity to the extent that we want to imitate his life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-jesus-had-a-wife-would-that-change-anything/635337.md?page=6)