# If Kerry wins, does anybody in the Bush Admin need to fear criminal prosecution? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565 "2004-10-16T18:38:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/21 "2004-10-19T16:35:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Didn’t seem to work with Clinton. > > Sorry, boys, but these fantasies of seeking indictments of your political opponents isn’t going to fly. Kerry had better not let anyone know that he wants to try this before Jan. 20, or Bush can simply flip him the bird and issue blanket pardons all around. If Kerry does keep it under his hat and decides to have a go, he had better keep a stack of blank pardon forms for himself and everyone else in his administration come 2009. What goes around is damn well gonna come around. 😉 > > Nor do I have much faith in Kerry’s ability to do this, either. He is quickly going to have to point to some specific statute that has been violated, and show specific evidence that it was violated. Dark accusations from the Democratic Underground are not going to do it for a court of law. I think we are entirely in agreement here. The justice department should prosecute any and all who are guilty of crimes. Care should be taken to avoid any appearance of the Kerry administration being involved. And our current president would cheerfully pardon anyone who was indicted who could possibly hurt his inner circle with their testimony. (Just like dear old dad) ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/22 "2004-10-19T17:47:04Z")
> [@](#): > > If Bush is as strong as he is now… why doesn’t he have a chance in 2008? I’m not sure you understand how Americans feel about losers. If Bush loses this election, he will be a loser. Losers do not get re-elected in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/23 "2004-10-19T18:02:56Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > “Partisan bullcrap” would be something more along the lines of investigations of who in the Bush admin go blowjobs. That’s REAL partisan bullcrap. See the difference? Oh, I see the difference quite clearly. It lies in whose ox is being gored, as ever. Lying, perjury, obstruction of justice, selling pardons for money - all partisan bullcrap. Being a Republican - criminal behavior. Or it would be if the fascist Left had its way. We’ll see. If Kerry does manage to get elected, and tries to start a partisan witch-hunt, perhaps that will be the first big scandal of his administration when it blows up in his face. I can’t believe he (or rather, his handlers) could be that stupid, but it is possible. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/24 "2004-10-19T18:27:43Z")
> [@hazel-rah](#): > > I’m not sure you understand how Americans feel about losers. If Bush loses this election, he will be a loser. Losers do not get re-elected in this country. Well not exactly what I would call a political analysis of Bush’s chances in 2008… but good enough. 🙂 I knew about “loser” mentality… but I didn’t think it went that far. Extrating from that: So if the USA withdraws from Iraq they are losers ? So its better to stick around no matter what ? “neat” logic. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/25 "2004-10-19T22:02:08Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Well not exactly what I would call a political analysis of Bush’s chances in 2008… but good enough. 🙂 I knew about “loser” mentality… but I didn’t think it went that far. > > Extrating from that: So if the USA withdraws from Iraq they are losers ? So its better to stick around no matter what ? “neat” logic. :eek: Notice how long it took us to get our asses out of the meat grinder in Vietnam. Note the people even on this board who still grumble about “we coulda won that war” with no consideration of whether we SHOULDA won that war. Americans will sacrifice quite a few of their kids to avoid feeling like losers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/26 "2004-10-19T22:14:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We’ll see. If Kerry does manage to get elected, and tries to start a partisan witch-hunt, perhaps that will be the first big scandal of his administration when it blows up in his face. I can’t believe he (or rather, his handlers) could be that stupid, but it is possible. It won’t blow up in his face, **Sho.** If you don’t think the new DOJ investigators will find anything rich and meaty, you have lost your sense of smell. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/27 "2004-10-20T01:24:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Being a Republican - criminal behavior. Or it would be if the fascist Left had its way. Can I interest you in a new cross? The one you’re on is getting pretty old. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/28 "2004-10-20T13:24:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It won’t blow up in his face, **Sho.** If you don’t think the new DOJ investigators will find anything rich and meaty, you have lost your sense of smell. Or you are confusing fantasy with reality. Pretty much what I meant earlier. You all are assuming that, since Bush is a Republican, there _must_ be something criminal going on. All that is needed is to start digging. Dig long enough, dig hard enough, and you will find a scandal. When Ken Starr does it, it is a partisan witch hunt. If Kerry does it, well - that’s different. That’s the difference between Dems and Republicans. When Clinton aides trashed the White House, and Clinton spent his closing moments selling pardons and revoking executive orders on ethics and influence peddling, Bush decided not to try to prosecute. Bush hasn’t even lost the election, and you people are trying to get him indicted. For something. Hypocrisy from the Left - imagine my surprise. :rolleyes: Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/29 "2004-10-20T13:33:36Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > As Chief Executive, he could keep a bipartisan effort honest, and his history as a Senator shows he was not averse to working across the aisle (he worked with Jesse Helms on the Iran Contra exposure) and even uncovering shenanigans among his own party members. Are you sure it was Helms? I seem to recall that he defended Iran-Contra. I could be wrong, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/30 "2004-10-20T13:34:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s the difference between Dems and Republicans. When Clinton aides trashed the White House, and Clinton spent his closing moments selling pardons and revoking executive orders on ethics and influence peddling, Bush decided not to try to prosecute. Nonsense. The GSA determined that no trashing occured. See this [Washington Post story](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A45242-2001May18) > [@](#): > > The General Services Administration, which investigated the alleged misdeeds, said the rumors were unfounded. “The condition of the real property was consistent with what we would expect to encounter when tenants vacate office space after an extended occupancy,” said a GSA statement. A rumor debunked over three years ago keeps getting spread by the right- how surprising. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/31 "2004-10-20T14:25:56Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Nonsense. The GSA determined that no trashing occured. The [GAO report](http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d02360.pdf) says differently: > [@](#): > > Incidents such as the removal of keys from computer keyboards; the theft of various items; the leaving of certain voice mail messages, signs, and written messages; and the placing of glue on desk drawers clearly were done intentionally. > > The June 2001 list indicated that six door signs, six medallions, two EEOB > doorknobs, and a presidential seal were stolen. > > Twenty-six EOP staff told us that they observed a total of 30 to 64 computer > keyboards with missing or damaged (glued, whited-out, or pushed down) > “W” keys in specific rooms or offices. > > … about 150 keyboards had to be replaced because of missing or > damaged “W” keys… > > Two EOP employees who helped establish telephone service for new staff > said that they heard a total of 6 to 7 obscene or vulgar voice mail messages > that were left on telephones in vacated offices. > > Twenty-nine EOP staff said that they observed a total of 25 to 26 prank > signs, printed materials, stickers, or written messages that were affixed to > walls or desks; placed in copiers, printers, desks, and cabinets; or placed > on the floor in specific rooms or offices, and that there were multiple > copies of these in some locations. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/32 "2004-10-21T01:04:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Are you sure it was Helms? I seem to recall that he defended Iran-Contra. I could be wrong, of course. Kerry had uncovered a lot of evidence pointing to the Contras receiving funding from criminal activities —including drug trafficking, which was the point on which both Kerry and Helms could agree. The relevant thing about this investigation (relevant to my previous post, any way) is that Kerry kept the investigation going in the Senate by taking it to _Republican_ colleagues and convincing them there was something there to investigate. It was Kerry’s willingness and ability to appeal to common goals amid ideological differences that allowed his alliance with Helms and got the matter before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. This is a man who _really does_ know how to be a uniter. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/33 "2004-10-21T02:07:35Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > This is a man who _really does_ know how to be a uniter. I guess that’s a **good** thing . . . but is it possible it might restrain him from having his DOJ nail the Bushivik bastards like they deserve? I sure hope not! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/34 "2004-10-21T10:35:55Z")
Nothing better than a good reckoning, is there? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/35 "2004-10-21T13:38:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The [GAO report](http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d02360.pdf) says differently: The GAO report was a hatchet job and everybody knows it. The damage was approximately $20,000, while the GAO investigation cost about $200,000. The money spent on the investigation was just one last Republican attempt to use tax money to smear Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/36 "2004-10-21T14:22:55Z")
What a strange world Shodan lives in. He thinks investigating treason is the same thing as investigating a blowjob. He can’t distinguish between one as a substantive issue and one as witchhunt material. Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/37 "2004-10-21T17:16:08Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The GAO report was a hatchet job and everybody knows it. Really? Name a non-partisan source who says so. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/38 "2004-10-21T17:59:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Really? Name a non-partisan source who says so. Besides the GSA report itself? You can believe the GAO or you can believe the GSA. Other than that, take your choice of spin… From [the Toledo Blade](http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2002106150106) > [@](#): > > The report was commissioned - the GAO had no choice - by that paragon of congressional virtue, Rep. Bob Barr (R., Georgia), who for eight years never missed a chance to unleash partisan and personal vitriol on Mr. Clinton > > Vandalism? The W key had been pried from 62 computer keyboards, at an estimated cost of $4,850 to repair or replace. At $72 each for a $10 keyboard, is this efficient government procurement? From [the Kansas City Star](http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/home.pat,local/3accae7d.517,.html) > [@](#): > > “I think it was this calculated effort to plant a damaging story,” said Alex S. Jones, director of the Joan Shorenstein Center on the Press, Politics and Public Policy at Harvard University. “There was a sort of fertile ground for believing anything bad.” > [@](#): > > “They told me that there were papers that were not organized lying on the floor and on desks; there were some scratches here and there, but the bottom line was they didn’t see anything really in their view that was significant and that would appear to some as real extensive damage,” said Bernard Unger, director for physical infrastructure for the General Accounting Office, which asked GSA to look into the allegations. From [the Webguild Sentinel](http://www.webguild.com/sentinel/whouse_vandlism.htm) > [@](#): > > The unverified charges of wanton property destruction in the White House and on Air Force One was a hot story in the early days of the Bush administration. But none of it happened. An official at Andrews Air Force Base, which maintains the presidential jets, told Knight Ridder Newspapers at the height of the controversy that nothing was missing. President Bush acknowledged that a few days later. “They told me that there were papers that were not organized laying on the floor and on desks, there were some scratches here and there, but the bottom line was they didn’t see anything … that would appear to some as real extensive damage,” said Bernard Unger, director for physical infrastructure for the General Accounting Office, which asked GSA to look into the allegations. Barr’s office did not return calls. So the director of physical infrastructure for the GAO, which wrote the damning report, says there was nothing to it. When the GOP bashes Clinton, where there’s smoke, there’s mirrors. ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/39 "2004-10-21T18:58:45Z")
In keeping with the spirit of the OP, what about those guarding troops in Iraq? After the scandal with the pictures of tortured prisoners, why isn’t this a War Crime? Will those soldiers be brought up on criminal charges? - Jinx ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565/40 "2004-10-21T19:02:10Z")
> [@hazel-rah](#): > > I’m not sure you understand how Americans feel about losers. If Bush loses this election, he will be a loser. Losers do not get re-elected in this country. Grover Cleveland won the popular vote, but lost the electoral vote in that intermediate election between his two terms. Yet, he was re-elected. Just shows when you’re down, you’re not out. Personally, I don’t think “W” will try again, though. (I just wonder if America can get some kind of 2-for-1 discount in the cost of the Secret Service having to guard father and son!) - Jinx [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-kerry-wins-does-anybody-in-the-bush-admin-need-to-fear-criminal-prosecution/269565.md?page=3)