# "If liberals are so tolerant, they should tolerate the hatred of liberals" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465 "2008-02-06T01:38:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/61 "2008-02-06T16:24:53Z")
[QUOTE=elmwood] I can’t fit my intended title into the space given, so I’ll rephrase it. All too often, I hear conservatives make the argument that “If liberals were so tolerant, they should also tolerate and embrace the Republican Party, prayer in schools, groups that hate gays, the idea of nuking Iran …” You get the idea. [/QUOTE] I’ve never heard anyone make that argument, and I have lots of very conservative friends. Can you give us a cite that this is common thinking among conservatives? Looks like a giant straw man to me. To be clear, I’d like to see cites supporting each of those examples in your OP. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/62 "2008-02-06T16:24:59Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Which liberals are you talking about? This is a thread about _conservatives_ proposing that liberals say they are universally tolerant, and should thus tolerate some specific bit of conservative nonsense. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I was speaking in generalities. Mostly because I personally have never heard a conservative say that liberals should tolerate groups that hate gays, as suggested in the OP. See, the OP was exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. The OP is framing the issue a certain way…that any group that opposes what he believes ought to be the final word on gay rights is a group that “hates gays.” Maybe the group doesn’t believe in gay marriage, for instance. I don’t necessarily agree with that opinion, but I don’t think that it has to automatically mean that the group “hates gays.” Being intolerant of that viewpoint, to me, means that you won’t even listen to the reasons for having the opinion, but instead automatically leap to the conclusion that the person hates gays/is a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/63 "2008-02-06T16:27:54Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Does that include, say, people who choose to abuse their pets? Or who believe in beating their spouses? Those are private life choices, after all. I think that definition of tolerance leaves something to be desired. Therein lies the problem. It seems to me that people are saying, “Liberals don’t believe in universal tolerance. We simply believe in tolerating the things that should be tolerated!” This is why there’s a communication disconnect between the liberals and the conservatives. Conservatives believe that liberals tolerate certain things that should NOT be tolerated, and that they refuse to tolerate things (specifically, conservative values) that do deserve tolerance. [/QUOTE] I do agree that communication is the problem, but I point to your post as an example of the garbled consideration of the issue. The generalizations seem to come most clearly from the conservatives in this thread. Be specific! That was the point of my first post here, and it remains the case. But to address the clarity of communication, explain your last sentence please. I am tolerant of conservatives having different values. I am hoping you can provide adequate examples of liberals trying to prevent conservatives from having conservative values. The problem comes about when those conservative values are put into discriminatory action against others. I’m pretty sure, contra **Sarafeena** et al., here, that no liberal has ever proclaimed that they would tolerate all discriminatory actions. Please cite to the contrary. Again, the generalizations are NOT being pushed by liberals here, but by conservatives in their straw man construction of what liberals believe about themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/64 "2008-02-06T16:29:00Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’ve never heard anyone make that argument, and I have lots of very conservative friends. Can you give us a cite that this is common thinking among conservatives? Looks like a giant straw man to me. To be clear, I’d like to see cites supporting each of those examples in your OP. [/QUOTE] Oh, I’m sure I’ve heard it several times on this board alone. Do you need a cite to that effect? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/65 "2008-02-06T16:32:57Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] …Being intolerant of that viewpoint, to me, means that you won’t even listen to the reasons for having the opinion, but instead automatically leap to the conclusion that the person hates gays/is a bigot… [/QUOTE] Which presupposes that there is an entirely reasonable and legitimate reason to withold such recognition from gay people. Any idea what that entirely reasonable and legitimate reason might be? If no such reason exists, then why should I listen respectfully, unless a new! improved! entirely legitimate reason is in the offing? If it doesn’t exist today, is it likely to exist tomorrow? We wait with bated breath. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/66 "2008-02-06T16:34:15Z")
[QUOTE=cricetus] The example offered was banning businesses that discriminate openly against homosexual applicants. That’s really the rub right there. It always comes down to liberals being expected to tolerate some kind of institutionalized intolerance. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I didn’t see that example. This is a great example, actually, to illustrate what I’m talking about. Many conservatives hold a philosophical principle that there should be no protected classes. Not because they believe that people ought to be discriminated against, but because they don’t think there’s a Constitutional basis for not allowing people to make hiring decisions based on whatever criteria they choose. This doesn’t mean that people who hold that position are bigots. I know many a conservative who wouldn’t think of patronizing a business that they knew to be discriminatory, while at the same time thinking that laws banning such businesses should not exist. This is a philosophical idea about the role of government, not an illustration of bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/67 "2008-02-06T16:36:04Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Which presupposes that there is an entirely reasonable and legitimate reason to withold such recognition from gay people. Any idea what that entirely reasonable and legitimate reason might be? If no such reason exists, then why should I listen respectfully, unless a new! improved! entirely legitimate reason is in the offing? If it doesn’t exist today, is it likely to exist tomorrow? We wait with bated breath. [/QUOTE] Better example is one I’ve discussed in my previous post, because it has a more clear-cut/direct answer than one that could be given in the defense of a marriage amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/68 "2008-02-06T16:51:41Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Does that include, say, people who choose to abuse their pets? Or who believe in beating their spouses? Those are private life choices, after all. I think that definition of tolerance leaves something to be desired. [/quote] Personal characteristics and private life decisions do not extend to activities that involve causing physical harm to others. It’s precisely because such characteristics are superficial and because such choices have negligible effect on other that they should be tolerated. Liberal tolerance doesn’t extend to things are are truly wrong, like murder or suppression of human rights. And tolerance doesn’t mean that you are required to vote for people whose policies you disagree with. It means you don’t put them in jail or deny them a job or encourage people to hate them because of their policies. You know, you can overexamine every word in the English language in order to make any statement nonsensical. And you can pretend to misunderstand a word forever but still never make a point. > [@](#): > > Conservatives believe that liberals tolerate certain things that should NOT be tolerated, and that they refuse to tolerate things (specifically, conservative values) that do deserve tolerance. > [@](#): > > Therein lies the problem. It seems to me that people are saying, “Liberals don’t believe in universal tolerance. We simply believe in tolerating the things that should be tolerated!” Nonsense. Disagreeing with someone’s policy positions is not intolerance. Liberals _do_ tolerate conservative values. They just don’t agree with them and don’t believe that conservative values should represent a legal mandate on everyone or limit the workplace, political, or social prospects of those who violate conservative values. You are allowed to be homophobe. You are just not allowed to operate a public organization that practices discrimination against homosexuals. That’s not intolerance. [QUOTE=Mr. Moto] That “organization” is the federal government. Now, I do not myself agree with that particular policy - but I don’t think it is the proper place of the Berkeley City Council to make federal law. [/QUOTE] While that might be a valid constitutional issue, it has nothing to do with liberal tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/69 "2008-02-06T17:01:57Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Oh, I’m sure I’ve heard it several times on this board alone. Do you need a cite to that effect? [/QUOTE] That would be a start. I’ll be floored, though, if someone posted on this board that liberals should “embrace” nuking Iran in the spirit of tolerance. But I could be wrong… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/70 "2008-02-06T17:07:10Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] While that might be a valid constitutional issue, it has nothing to do with liberal tolerance. [/QUOTE] Sure it does - when the actions of the board go beyond advocacy for gays and turn instead to insulting Marines and endorsing actions to drive them from town. While this point seems to be lost on you, it is crystal clear to others - I’m linking an op-ed in the [San Francisco Chronicle.](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/06/EDP8URR5V.DTL) > [@](#): > > Berkeley’s leaders have taken the worthy notion of political protest and shoved it over the cliff. While playing up arguments of free speech and organized protest, the council has loaded the deck with insulting language that denigrates the military and embarrasses the anti-war cause. > > The motion approved by the council includes a number of remarkable statements: “The United States has a history of launching illegal, immoral and unprovoked wars of aggression” and “The military recruiters are sales people known to lie to and seduce minors.” > > …Two Berkeley City Council members, Sharon Olds and Laurie Capitelli, are hurrying a resolution for the council’s Feb. 12 meeting to paper over the harm done. Their idea is to state Berkeley’s opposition to the Iraq war and support the troops, no-brainer notions in local politics. The measure would also attempt to undo the damage by also dropping the offending rhetoric of the original resolution that singled out the Marine recruiters. That would be a welcome ending to a foolish crusade. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/71 "2008-02-06T17:11:09Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] There are ways of making your point without driving a Marine office out of town. The extremism of that action is what led me to say what I did. And now it seems lots of people are simply agreeing that tolerance for liberals doesn’t go too far, which rather confirms what I said above, doesn’t it? [/QUOTE] I doubt anyone has ever said liberals must be tolerant of intolerance. Even back 45 years ago liberals were intolerant of those advocating segregation and race hatred. Tsk, tsk. If the BCC passed an ordinance stating a desire to close down a hiring agency explicitly discriminating against Asians, Jews, or Republicans, would you be equally upset about this intolerance? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/72 "2008-02-06T17:12:06Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Former liberal-turned-conservative here [/quote] Got mugged, huh? Anyhoo, if liberals not voting for Obama are violating their claimed ideals, I guess conservatives who don’t shoot abortion doctors are in the same boat. Or they’re just lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/73 "2008-02-06T17:21:57Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Got mugged, huh? [/QUOTE] Not me, just my paycheck! But that has nothing to do with my “conversion.” I turned conservative long before I made any money worth taxing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/74 "2008-02-06T17:31:11Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Sure it does - when the actions of the board go beyond advocacy for gays and turn instead to insulting Marines and endorsing actions to drive them from town. [/quote] I was responding to your stated criticism of the action, which was: > [@](#): > > That “organization” is the federal government. Now, I do not myself agree with that particular policy - but I don’t think it is the proper place of the Berkeley City Council to make federal law. Which is a constitutional question that has nothing to do with tolerance. If this was not the basis of your argument that the action is an example of liberal intolerance, then why did you say it? > [@](#): > > While this point seems to be lost on you, it is crystal clear to others I do not expect to study the whole history of an action by the Berkeley City Council just because you reference it. If you are labeling it intolerant, then I expect that you will provide your reasoning in your posts, not make irrelevant statements and then make sarcastic statements implying that I am stupid. You think this action is intolerant – you post in this thread all the reasons why you think it’s intolerant. > [@](#): > > “The United States has a history of launching illegal, immoral and unprovoked wars of aggression” and “The military recruiters are sales people known to lie to and seduce minors.” They might be completely wrong about these things, they might be foolishly undiplomatic, they might be deluded conspiracy theorists, they might be mental cases, they might be constitutionally in error, but, again, I don’t see how this has anything to do with the liberal value of tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/75 "2008-02-06T17:35:59Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Better example is one I’ve discussed in my previous post, because it has a more clear-cut/direct answer than one that could be given in the defense of a marriage amendment. [/QUOTE] Notice, however, that the assumption was that one must produce a reason why your opinions should be tolerated. Which is pretty much the opposite of “tolerance”. > [@Voyager](#): > > I doubt anyone has ever said liberals must be tolerant of intolerance. Right - ‘we will tolerate anything except intolerance’. Then one simply labels everyone who disagrees on selected issues as ‘intolerant’ and presto - all the advantages of sanctimony and none of the disadvantages of hypocrisy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/76 "2008-02-06T17:42:31Z")
The top three reasons for apostasy are mugged, married, or bitten in the jugular by an Objectivist. Ronnie Reagan, for instance, cast aside his silly unionist and liberal leanings when he married the daughter of a rich guy who was just to the left of Otto Von Bismarck. My own views haven’t changed much at all in about forty years. They used to be more radical, but they became gradually more centrist. Progress by stasis, stick to your guns and wait for them to catch up to you. Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/77 "2008-02-06T17:48:37Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] The top three reasons for apostasy are mugged, married, or bitten in the jugular by an Objectivist. Ronnie Reagan, for instance, cast aside his silly unionist and liberal leanings when he married the daughter of a rich guy who was just to the left of Otto Von Bismarck. [/QUOTE] Never mugged. Conservative before I was married. Don’t know any Objectivists. > [@](#): > > My own views haven’t changed much at all in about forty years. They used to be more radical, but they became gradually more centrist. Progress by stasis, stick to your guns and wait for them to catch up to you. Works for me. My views changed because I started to understand economics a little better, and because I started to understand the Constitution a little better. ---
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/78 "2008-02-06T17:51:03Z")
I’ve always said, “there’s nothing more intolerant than a tolerant liberal.” ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/79 "2008-02-06T17:55:20Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] “Conservatives think liberals have bad ideas. Liberals think conservatives are bad people.” It’s an overstatement, but at any given time, there are a half-dozen threads on the SDMB showing that it contains an element of truth. [/QUOTE] Oh, please. There are plenty of conservatives that think liberals are “bad people”, too. You think the pro-lifers accusing pro-choicers of supporting baby murder don’t think they’re bad people? You think the hawks accusing anti-war activists of supporting terrorism don’t think they’re bad people? If you go to a left-leaning message board like this one you’ll find people bashing conservatives, and if you go to a right-leaning message board you’ll find people bashing liberals. There’s also plenty on both sides who recognize that “good people” can disagree on issues of politics. But they tend not to be the ones posting lengthy rants on messageboards. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465/80 "2008-02-06T17:56:23Z")
Regarding the original post, I don’t know the name of the fallacy, but I will say it makes about as much sense as saying: “If you support freedom, you should support my freedom to oppress people!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-liberals-are-so-tolerant-they-should-tolerate-the-hatred-of-liberals/436465.md?page=5)