Really. Call the average Berserklyite a “liberal” and he will grossly insulted. But if we are to adopt the standard that anybody left of center is my responsibility, well, we can really have some fun with that, now can’t we?
And why stop with “protest” at an abortion center? Howzabout “bomb” or “sniper”?
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion]
Well, if you think that Berkeley is representative of liberals in general, then go ahead and make that inference.
[/QUOTE]
I actually don’t think that there is such a thing as a place that is representative of Liberals in general. Nor is there an equivalent for conservatives for that matter.
I consider the Berkeley Council and **elucidator ** to both be showing a bit of intdo olerance (or perhaps simply tolerance for intolerance).
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Really. Call the average Berserklyite a “liberal” and he will grossly insulted. But if we are to adopt the standard that anybody left of center is my responsibility, well, we can really have some fun with that, now can’t we?
And why stop with “protest” at an abortion center? Howzabout “bomb” or “sniper”?
[/QUOTE]
I stopped at protest to make it equivalent. If a bunch of pro-lifers acted like the Pink Panthers did in the video I linked, I would expect to be hearing all over about how a women’s right to choose was impacted by the criminal actions of the pro-lifers.
And I would agree.
Funny, though, that when this group went so far as to physically block access - nobody seemed to see that as an issue.
Just to be clear, I see no good reason for a city council to have a foreign policy. And I don’t object to the existence of the Marines, I object to how they are used.
[QUOTE=Algher]
I actually don’t think that there is such a thing as a place that is representative of Liberals in general. Nor is there an equivalent for conservatives for that matter.
[/QUOTE]
Whatever. Just like about 100 other posters in this thread, you post comments like “This is a nice anecdote to show the supposed tolerance of liberals,” and then when you are called for making bullshit generalizations, you back up and try to re-interpret what you said: “Oh, I just meant *some * liberals.” If you meant some liberals, then say some liberals in the first place, instead of saying it after you get called on it.
This has turned into what must be the stupidest fucking GD thread we’ve had in weeks. Some mod ought to come in here and put it out of its misery.
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion]
Whatever. Just like about 100 other posters in this thread, you post comments like “This is a nice anecdote to show the supposed tolerance of liberals,” and then when you are called for making bullshit generalizations, you back up and try to re-interpret what you said: “Oh, I just meant *some * liberals.” If you meant some liberals, then say some liberals in the first place, instead of saying it after you get called on it.
This has turned into what must be the stupidest fucking GD thread we’ve had in weeks. Some mod ought to come in here and put it out of its misery.
[/QUOTE]
I posted that after another poster decided to get a bit snarky.
The topic of the Marines in Berkeley was started by **Voyager ** with a slam on Republicans.
I was accused of being fuzzy about the school lunches, when I was the one providing a little more detail.
So, yeah, lots of even handness and clean communication going on here.
[QUOTE=Algher]
…Funny, though, that when this group went so far as to physically block access - nobody seemed to see that as an issue.
[/QUOTE]
Ah, c’mon, this is street theater protest, it makes a point, period. Do you seriously imagine that the recruiting efforts of the USMC have been impacted in any meaningful way? That if somebody really, really wanted to join the Marines, he was thwarted? Really and truly?
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Ah, c’mon, this is street theater protest, it makes a point, period. Do you seriously imagine that the recruiting efforts of the USMC have been impacted in any meaningful way? That if somebody really, really wanted to join the Marines, he was thwarted? Really and truly?
[/QUOTE]
It is not streat theater when you stop people from getting to their office. Watch the video. Watch the guy in the suit try to enter his place of business. Listen to the whines of the Pink Panthers. Observe the nonchalance of the cops.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Really? Well, I wonder what you hear when you understand that Reagan was speaking at the Neshoba County Fair, and when Dukakis spoke at the same event in 1988,
[/quote]
You realize that isn’t a rebuttal.
The Democratic Party has already confronted its past with respect to race. The GOP confronts neither its past nor its present.
Neither your post nor your cite rebuts that in the least.
It’s a nice attempt at a sidetrack, but no thanks.
Please to quote the part of your cite that demonstrates that Reagan did not in fact kick off his 1980 campaign in Philadelphia, MS.
[QUOTE=JohnnieEnigma]
Speaking of liberals, does anyone else see the irony in a progressive liberal state like massachusetts being unable to embrace Obama? Yeah, that was interesting… 
[/QUOTE]
Gee, now that you mention it … ***NO! ***
[QUOTE=JohnnieEnigma]
Speaking of liberals, does anyone else see the irony in a progressive liberal state like massachusetts being unable to embrace Obama? Yeah, that was interesting…
[/QUOTE]
If the actions of other people do not match your stereotypes of them, the conceptual problem is not necessarily on *their * side. Ya know.
I remind you that Sharpton’s actual support, as shown by his actual vote totals, was as close to zero as makes no never mind. I’ll happily trade him to you for Pat Buchanan’s primary wins, okay? Are you going to tell us next about Robert Byrd having been a Klansman in his young-and-ignorant days, too? Or do you accept that you’re engaging in a elementary fallacy here?
[QUOTE=JohnnieEnigma]
Speaking of liberals, does anyone else see the irony in a progressive liberal state like massachusetts being unable to embrace Obama? Yeah, that was interesting…
[/QUOTE]
On NPR tonight, they were interviewing some female Clinton volunteers in Washington State, and they were all pissed at Obama’s success because it showed that TPTB or our sexist society or whatever wasn’t going to let a woman win. What the fuck?! If you vote for Obama, you’re sexist; if you vote for Clinton, you’re racist. Talk about damned if you do…
woops
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
…“tolerance” for the political left is generally just a pose that falls apart at the barest challenge.
[/QUOTE]
Me: “The resolution does not include the word tolerance. It contains no language advocating across-the-board tolerance: that would be incoherent. Mr. Moto’s contention is wholly unsupported.”
Moto: “No it isn’t - I said the resolution wasn’t tolerant of the Marine Corps. Would you disagree with that?”
Me: Er, I was referring to the contention that I quoted in my post. You know, the part about liberals posing as tolerant. You know, the contention that you purported to substantiate.
This BCC quote is a red herring.
Moto: “And Zoe, they want to kick the office out of town entirely. Does that sound tolerant of other viewpoints to you?”
Did you read the resolution? There’s a lot about standing shoulder-to-shoulder with opponents of sexual discrimination in the military. There’s the statement that the marine corps recruiting center is “Unwelcome in Berkeley”, and a section on misleading recruitment practices, as well as one on unnecessary and unconstitutional wars.
Now I think the resolution was ill-advised. But I saw nothing specific about plans to kick the marine corps out of town. Where did you get that? Maybe it’s the section, “…the Peace and Justice Commission recommends that the Council of the City of Berkeley direct the City Attorney to investigate and report back to the Council… options for enforcement of Chapter 13.28 of the Berkeley Municipal Code, prohibiting discrimination…”
So there’s nothing about “kicking the marine corps out”. And it’s not even a report of the City Council: it’s a freaking sub-committee. Mr. Moto’s sourcing and reporting leaves much to be desired, in my view.
Still, I see from the above posts that the Berkeley cops aren’t going to arrest anybody for blocking access to the marine recruitment center. So that’s what this is about. I just wish Mr. Moto had explained what was actually taking place.
Has Mr. Moto offered any additional substantiation for his initial statement?
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Doesn’t seem to be the regular school lunch program - just a special earmark for organic lunches cooked by Chez Panisse.
Now, while I might be sympathetic to arguments that this sort of thing ought not be caught in the middle of a fight between Berkeley and the Marine Corps, I also wonder why I’m paying for Chez Panisse lunches for crumbcrunchers in one of the wealthiest parts of the country.
You’ll get no sympathy from me here.
[/QUOTE]
Have you ever actually been to Berkeley? I assure you it is not full of McMansions. When you cross over from Oakland, you can’t tell the difference. My aunt and uncle used to live on Dupont Circle - but I’ve actually been to DC, and know the whole city isn’t like that.
And, btw, I rather suspect some judge will say the BCC can’t force the Marine recruiters out. They have as much of a chance getting this implemented as their nuclear-free zone laws.
And also btw, the Chronicle today had a letter from a BCC member saying that they do support the troops in every way, they just don’t support misleading recruitment into a discriminatory organization.
[QUOTE=Algher]
I posted that after another poster decided to get a bit snarky.
The topic of the Marines in Berkeley was started by **Voyager ** with a slam on Republicans.
I was accused of being fuzzy about the school lunches, when I was the one providing a little more detail.
So, yeah, lots of even handness and clean communication going on here.
[/QUOTE]
Uh, where did I do that? My first response to Moto, who started the BCC debate (which was not a hijack) was:
Since I’m Jewish, you can be sure that including Republicans with Jews was not a slam. My next post said that Barry Goldwater was almost certainly not being racist in being against the civil rights acts, but the Southern governors, who were Democrats at the time, were.
Please. The Republican part of Rockefeller, Ford, and even Nixon was a good thing, and I was a member of it. The party of Bush and Cheney isn’t, which is why I left it.
My take on the Berkely Marines issue is that, sure, you can stretch it to make it out to be an example of intolerance, but…that’s the best example you can come up with?
The Marine Corps isn’t some vulnerable minority group, it’s an arm of the US goverment, arguably the most powerful organization in the world. And although I too disagree with it and I don’t think municipalities should be setting public policy like that, the reason for it is that organizations obvious and blatant intolerance toward gays. Can’t we come up with an example that doesn’t involve intolerance of intolerance?
If ordinary Marines who wander into Berkeley were reduced to tears and run out of town by the harassment and jeering of the liberal mob, then that would mean something. Come to think of it, the treatment returning Vietnam vets by anti-war protesters is a pretty good example of erstwhile liberals being intolerant. But of course, liberals aren’t like that anymore. Much as conservatives would like to smear Iraq war opponents as such.
Now then, the paradox of tolerance of intolerance can be illustrated in simple mathematical terms:
Tolerance of tolerance = tolerance.
Tolerance of intolerance = intolerance.
Intolerance of tolerance = intolerance.
Intolerance of intolerance = tolerance.
[QUOTE=sqweels]
My take on the Berkely Marines issue is that, sure, you can stretch it to make it out to be an example of intolerance, but…that’s the best example you can come up with?
[/QUOTE]
Not really, but it was a current event that was fresh in mind.
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Not really, but it was a current event that was fresh in mind.
[/QUOTE]
I’ll be a good liberal traitor and help you out. How about examples of liberals suppressing free speech, like when Ward Churchill gets shouted down when he tries to give talks at universities?
