# If McCain Had Chosen Anyone Reasonable for VP, he'd be President McCain **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212 "2008-11-05T04:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/101 "2008-11-06T17:14:14Z")
So, other than a few personal ancedotes (The plural of ancedote is not data) does anyone have a link anywhere to some poll where they questioned dudes coming out of the voting booth and found out that something like 8 million voters or 6% of the total electorate actually said “I only voted for Obama becuase of Palin”.? 😕:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/102 "2008-11-06T17:15:53Z")
Isn’t hindsight wonderful? Everything becomes so crystal clear! I do recall thinking, when Palin was chosen as McCain’s running mate, that it seemed like a smart political move, and one which took away the advantage Obama would have had if he had chosen a woman (Hillary) for his. And the publicity Palin got thru unexpected sources like SNL seemed to eclipse Biden. Even is all that is true, obviously it wasn’t sufficent to make up for other things. Ah, hindsight. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/103 "2008-11-06T18:33:38Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Isn’t hindsight wonderful? Everything becomes so crystal clear! > > I do recall thinking, when Palin was chosen as McCain’s running mate, that it seemed like a smart political move, and one which took away the advantage Obama would have had if he had chosen a woman (Hillary) for his. And the publicity Palin got thru unexpected sources like SNL seemed to eclipse Biden. > > Even is all that is true, obviously it wasn’t sufficent to make up for other things. > > Ah, hindsight. Isn’t it the campaign staff’s job to have “foresight,” i.e., perform proper due diligence when it comes to vetting a potential V.P. candidate? ---
**Author:** ![TJVM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b38774/32.png) [@TJVM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJVM)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/104 "2008-11-06T19:13:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How many countries are there? What’s a “country”? Where exactly does NA start and leave off? I go to the wiki page, and there’s several I have never heard of and a number whose status is debatable (they are territories and some have varying degrees of autonomy). They list something like 23- 41. If that was really the issue – she didn’t know all the Caribbean island nations, or somesuch – then I agree that it’s not as bad as it sounds. But, how could you get to be governor of a state (and a border state at that) without knowing which three countries are part of NAFTA? If that’s really true, it’s baffling and frightening. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/105 "2008-11-06T19:40:52Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Isn’t it the campaign staff’s job to have “foresight,” i.e., perform proper due diligence when it comes to vetting a potential V.P. candidate? Foresight is fuzzy. Hindsight is 20/20. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/106 "2008-11-06T19:44:03Z")
> [@TJVM](#): > > If that was really the issue – she didn’t know all the Caribbean island nations, or somesuch – then I agree that it’s not as bad as it sounds. But, how could you get to be governor of a state (and a border state at that) without knowing which three countries are part of NAFTA? If that’s really true, it’s baffling and frightening. True, I agree. If you had asked me “\*which three countries are part of NAFTA? \*” I’d have no problem answering. I might have been stumped a bit if you had just asked _"which countries are part of NAFTA? "_ as of course, it’s quite possible for another nation to have joined without me knowing about it. Not being able to answer at least “USA, Canada & Mexico” is an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/107 "2008-11-06T21:10:26Z")
Heck, I can’t even name all 57 states. That was a joke son, a flag waver. You’re built too low, fast ones go right over your head. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/108 "2008-11-06T21:29:15Z")
Has anyone considered the possibilty he was discussing Heinz varieties? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/109 "2008-11-06T22:33:54Z")
> [@TJVM](#): > > If that was really the issue – she didn’t know all the Caribbean island nations, or somesuch – then I agree that it’s not as bad as it sounds. But, how could you get to be governor of a state (and a border state at that) without knowing which three countries are part of NAFTA? If that’s really true, it’s baffling and frightening. However, where the cite of Palin actually not knowing these things? Fox News sez " " **We are told that** …\*She didn’t know what countries make up NAFTA. She didn’t know that Africa is a continent."\* ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/110 "2008-11-06T22:48:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > However, where the cite of Palin actually not knowing these things? Fox News sez " > " **We are told that** …\*She didn’t know what countries make up NAFTA. > > She didn’t know that Africa is a continent."\* That’s exactly the kind of thing a staffer is not going to say with attribution. However, the tape of the prank call, where she did not pick up on an incorrect name for the PM of Canada, certainly makes her ignorance here pretty plausible. If the new governor of Kansas doesn’t know this, it would be bad but not fatal. The governor of a state whose entire land border is with Canada, though, really ought to know it. As for Africa, I lived there for a year when I was in fifth grade, and even before that the fact that it was a continent was no surprise. She either doesn’t expose herself to any news or nonfiction, or she doesn’t retain anything. I wonder if her reluctance to release her medical records is because she suffers from some sort of brain damage. She made it into college, so she’s been exposed to this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/111 "2008-11-06T22:55:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That’s exactly the kind of thing a staffer is not going to say with attribution. However, the tape of the prank call, where she did not pick up on an incorrect name for the PM of Canada, certainly makes her ignorance here pretty plausible. > > If the new governor of Kansas doesn’t know this, it would be bad but not fatal. The governor of a state whose entire land border is with Canada, though, really ought to know it. As for Africa, I lived there for a year when I was in fifth grade, and even before that the fact that it was a continent was no surprise. She either doesn’t expose herself to any news or nonfiction, or she doesn’t retain anything. > > I wonder if her reluctance to release her medical records is because she suffers from some sort of brain damage. She made it into college, so she’s been exposed to this stuff. We’d have to see it in context. For example, maybe she might have mis-spoke like “the nations of France, Germany…Africa…”. Not seeing it in context or having a verifiable cite means it’s bullshit. Not that I think she’s gonna be the next winner in the Geography Bee, mind you, International issues certainly are not her _forte._ ---
**Author:** ![Influential\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Influential\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Influential_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/112 "2008-11-06T23:02:46Z")
I don’t blame her for the prank call. Presumably there are several people whose job it is to prevent blunders like that from happening, and they’re responsible for giving the clear for them to talk. Once she picks up the phone, it’s not very diplomatic to answer the phone and call shenanigans and hang up on who your closest advisers assure you is the president of France. Given the uncertainty, she handled the call extremely well, I thought. Pick on the woman for any number of her hundred faults, but that prank call is not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/113 "2008-11-06T23:09:59Z")
> [@Influential\_Panda](#): > > I don’t blame her for the prank call. Presumably there are several people whose job it is to prevent blunders like that from happening, and they’re responsible for giving the clear for them to talk. Once she picks up the phone, it’s not very diplomatic to answer the phone and call shenanigans and hang up on who your closest advisers assure you is the president of France. Given the uncertainty, she handled the call extremely well, I thought. > > Pick on the woman for any number of her hundred faults, but that prank call is not one of them. They fooled two Presidents of France, the Queen, the Pope, etc. And I expect at leats a couple of them are fairly knowledgeable about international issues. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/114 "2008-11-06T23:12:22Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Isn’t hindsight wonderful? Everything becomes so crystal clear! > > I do recall thinking, when Palin was chosen as McCain’s running mate, that it seemed like a smart political move,… Hindsight, nothing. A lot of people (such as me, and the people in my office) were saying, “This is a ridiculous, purely political move. Surely he doesn’t think women will flock to the Republican party simply because the VP candidate has a uterus?” The word “stunt casting” was used. A lot of people correctly called the Palin choice as being a shallow, ill-considered, transparent ploy for votes. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/115 "2008-11-07T00:08:08Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Hindsight, nothing. A lot of people (such as me, and the people in my office) were saying, “This is a ridiculous, purely political move. Surely he doesn’t think women will flock to the Republican party simply because the VP candidate has a uterus?” > > The word “stunt casting” was used. > > A lot of people correctly called the Palin choice as being a shallow, ill-considered, transparent ploy for votes. I certainly did, my first thought was, Puma bait. Now if she’d sounded as good as Obama, instead of just looking good, it might have worked. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/116 "2008-11-07T00:55:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, other than a few personal ancedotes (The plural of ancedote is not data) does anyone have a link anywhere to some poll where they questioned dudes coming out of the voting booth and found out that something like 8 million voters or 6% of the total electorate actually said “I only voted for Obama becuase of Palin”.? 😕:dubious: They didn’t poll 6% of the electorate, neither did they ask that question to the people they did poll to my knowledge. That McCain-Palin lost is obviously _NOT_ up for debate, nor is the fact that the economy was the most important issue to those polled in making their decisions who to vote for- a variety of polls and scientifically conducted surveys indicate that it was. However, the OP is addressing this question: regardless of whether the most important factor for independents was the economy or the war or other issues, _why_ did enough decide that Obama would govern the nation better than McCain would?", which was not a routinely asked question. Now, it has **NOT** been established whether Palin was the major factor, on that you are correct. It is my contention that she was the major factor because she gained him few followers he would not likely have had anyway and because after the honeymoon she caused an erosion of faith in McCain’s judgment. This isn’t proven, which is why this is a _debate_ rather than just a statement, and in lack of conclusive information we are debating this with reason and evidence. Hope this clarifies the matter for you. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/117 "2008-11-07T01:17:24Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > They didn’t poll 6% of the electorate, neither did they ask that question to the people they did poll to my knowledge. That McCain-Palin lost is obviously _NOT_ up for debate, nor is the fact that the economy was the most important issue to those polled in making their decisions who to vote for- a variety of polls and scientifically conducted surveys indicate that it was. Well, in the summary of the exit polling that I did [find](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/04/exit-polls-2008-see-the-f_n_140986.html), they don’t come out and say that Palin was the number 1 issue (that was the economy), but they did say this: > [@](#): > > And for all that “who is Barack Obama?” criticism, more voters were scared of a potential McCain presidency – 30 percent – than an Obama win – 23 percent. > > Also… Sarah Palin proved to be a drag on the ticket. Just 38 percent believe that the Alaska Governor was prepared to be President, far less than the 67 percent who said Joe Biden was prepared. I tend to hold with your central thesis – if McCain had picked an economics wonk as his VP choice, this would have been a much different election. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/118 "2008-11-07T01:48:33Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > I certainly did, my first thought was, Puma bait. It’s too bad PUMA consisted of, as near as I can tell, maybe twenty people. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/119 "2008-11-07T02:02:57Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Now, it has **NOT** been established whether Palin was the major factor, on that you are correct. It is my contention that she was the major factor because she gained him few followers he would not likely have had anyway and because after the honeymoon she caused an erosion of faith in McCain’s judgment. This isn’t proven, which is why this is a _debate_ rather than just a statement, and in lack of conclusive information we are debating this with reason and evidence. Anecdote: Yesterday I had a conversation about the election with a lifelong Republican woman of my acquaintance. She didn’t hesitate to say that she wasn’t ready to see a black man as President, even now that Barack’s been elected. And yet she voted for Obama, simply because Palin horrified her. (I’ve done my best to reassure her that All Will Be Well, and to encourage her to believe that in 2012 she’ll be enthusiastically voting to re-elect Obama. She’s not hopeless, just a product of her environment.) ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2008, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212/120 "2008-11-07T02:07:27Z")
> [@Influential\_Panda](#): > > I don’t blame her for the prank call. Presumably there are several people whose job it is to prevent blunders like that from happening, and they’re responsible for giving the clear for them to talk. Once she picks up the phone, it’s not very diplomatic to answer the phone and call shenanigans and hang up on who your closest advisers assure you is the president of France. Given the uncertainty, she handled the call extremely well, I thought. > > Pick on the woman for any number of her hundred faults, but that prank call is not one of them. What bothered me about how she handled that call was not being punked per se but rather her gushy giggly high school cheerleader tone throughout. That is NOT how I expect to hear a President or Vice President speak with the head of a foreign government. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mccain-had-chosen-anyone-reasonable-for-vp-hed-be-president-mccain/471212.md?page=7)