# If MCU gets X-Men and Fantastic Four.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 7, 2017, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765 "2017-12-07T05:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/21 "2017-12-08T03:10:10Z")
> [@Dropo](#): > > And what about the Skrulls? Marvel has always maligned their glories and triumphs, printing numerous hate tracts against them full of lies and slander. The Skrulls are a peace-loving race destined to rule the multiverse. Yet, they too have been written out of the movies. How many more indignities must they endure? They weren’t written out. They just appeared under their Chitauri alias. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/22 "2017-12-08T03:14:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Jophiel** : > > If you’re referring to The Incredibles, I disagree. The Incredibles is a great movie but, replication of some core powers and number of members aside (well, not even that if you count the baby), it’s not really a Fantastic Four movie. Different personalities, different catalysts, different dynamics. It’s still basically a family of superheroes, with most of the drama coming from family dynamics. That, I would argue, is the core concept of Fantastic Four, and Incredibles proves that that concept can be done well. And it also proves that those powers can be done well. What obstacles are left? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/23 "2017-12-08T03:15:02Z")
And they’re popping up in the [Captain Marvel](http://time.com/4870000/captain-marvel-skrulls-avengers-infinty-war/)movie. I’d have thought they went with the FF rights. Maybe someone cut a deal. It’s pretty clear Disney would like to have all of those rights back. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/24 "2017-12-08T05:00:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > They weren’t written out. They just appeared under their Chitauri alias. As I understand it, that was due to the Skrulls being covered under the Fantastic Four IP that Fox had. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/25 "2017-12-08T06:39:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s still basically a family of superheroes, with most of the drama coming from family dynamics. That, I would argue, is the core concept of Fantastic Four, and Incredibles proves that that concept can be done well. And it also proves that those powers can be done well. What obstacles are left? Meh, The Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy has better family-style dynamics than Fantastic Four. And much of The Incredibles’ dynamics came from the Parent-Minor Child angle that FF doesn’t have, made greater by the world they live in (kids not allowed to explore their powers, Mr. Incredible’s midlife non-hero crisis, etc). Obviously I can’t prove the negative and say definitively that a FF movie can’t work. However, I haven’t seen any compelling reason to keep trying to make it work. The characters aren’t particularly interesting and we already have better movies for learning to bicker and yet love. The powers are serviceable but nothing really “cool” (another thing The Incredibles had going for it: being elastic looks a lot less silly when animated). FF just doesn’t bring anything to the table in concept that isn’t being done (better) elsewhere to make anyone interested in a new FF movie after a string of terrible flicks. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/26 "2017-12-08T11:44:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > They weren’t written out. They just appeared under their Chitauri alias. But the big/classic/interesting hook when it comes to the Skrulls is, they can change their appearance: they’re the They Walk Among Us aliens, who made their big debut by impersonating the Fantastic Four so the authorities would show up to arrest the supers, and then – over the decades – giving us everything from the “Your Wife Is A Skrull” story to the “Captain America Is A Skrull” story to the “Agents of SHIELD Are Skrulls” story to the “Nixon Is A Skrull” story and so on. That rookie superhero? He’s a Skrull. Your beloved father, who just now got out of prison? He’s a Skrull. With the Chitauri, we got none of that; they were just Generic Invaders #53. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/27 "2017-12-08T21:15:22Z")
> [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > Also, if you introduce the FF now you either have to explain where they’ve been all this time or do another origin story, which nobody wants. They already have this problem in the MCU. Where was the Sorcerer Supreme, aka the Ancient One, the first time Loki appeared? And while magic is supposed to deal with other dimensional threats to earth, wouldn’t they have done something with as big as fighting Ultron got? Tried to help out Sokovia? I think that the different universes works better for this reason. Having the X-Men only universe let’s them focus a bit rather than introduce new things in the middle of a movie, such as this question. > [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > Can the MCU have two super-geniuses (Stark, Richards) without it being stupid? Again, partially already done this. Peter Parker is supposed to be near Reed in this capacity. Don’t get me wrong. Love the MCU movies! And Spider man! But they aren’t very good at consistency. My case in point: Spidey, in the comics, is supposed to be one of the strongest heroes, behind only Thor and Hulk. Yet Stark claims that Captain America could have taken him. In the movie, though, Spidey easily catches Winter Soldier’s metal arm, which is shown to be as strong as Cap’n, and holds it without effort. Further, I can’t imagine that holding the jetway is any worse than catching a moving car! It’s all up to who is writing it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/28 "2017-12-08T21:27:20Z")
Spider-Man is weaker than lots of characters other than Thor and Hulk. Off the top of my head, Iron Man, Vision, Colossus, Beast, and Thing are all stronger than him. He is stronger than Captain America, but he’s also an awkward teenager against a hardened combat veteran: Strength isn’t everything. ---
**Author:** ![vislor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vislor/32/5933_2.png) [@vislor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vislor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/29 "2017-12-08T21:49:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Spider-Man is weaker than lots of characters other than Thor and Hulk. Off the top of my head, Iron Man, Vision, Colossus, Beast, and Thing are all stronger than him. He is stronger than Captain America, but he’s also an awkward teenager against a hardened combat veteran: Strength isn’t everything. Well, sadly, Spidey seems to have fallen off. I know the comic collection I had that said this but was probably from late 70s, early 80s, and I don’t have it anymore. That put Spidey as 3rd or at least top ten in the Marvel comic universe at that point. In the lists I find, they put spider in mid tier, behind many I disagree with. The marvel wiki puts his strength at a 4 (on 7 scale) with Captain America at a 3 and Hulk and Thor at 7. Not sure that’s good enough of a scale to really differentiate. I disagree that Beast is stronger. That doesn’t get us anywhere! But I disagree. I think part of the issue with the Marvel Cinematic Universe is that we are soon going to be dealing with large scale bad guys, who need similar scaled good guys. And I doubt we will see Spidey in that mix. Sigh. Good conversation and I liked the research, even if it didn’t agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/30 "2017-12-08T21:58:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Spider-Man is weaker than lots of characters other than Thor and Hulk. Off the top of my head, Iron Man, Vision, Colossus, Beast, and Thing are all stronger than him. He is stronger than Captain America, but he’s also an awkward teenager against a hardened combat veteran: Strength isn’t everything. In the old (1980s, TSR-published) Marvel Super Heroes RPG, all stats, including Strength, were on a scale, from 0 to 100 (with some ways to boost above 100). From what I remember: Thor and Hulk both had 100 Strength (though that was Hulk’s baseline; the madder he got, the stronger he got, and was essentially “as strong as the plot needed him to be”). The Thing and Colossus were both at 75 Strength. Vision might have been there, too. Iron Man had a 50 Strength. Spider-Man had a 40 Strength (but also had a very high Agility). Captain American had a 20 Strength. In the game rules, 20 was the limit for a “normal” human’s physical characteristics, and since Cap was supposed to be the peak of human ability (but not necessarily superhuman), his physical stats were all 20s. ---
**Author:** ![escaped](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@escaped](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/escaped)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/31 "2017-12-08T22:02:06Z")
Instead of doing another x men movie. f.f. film . put the beast, wolverine with the avengers/ the fantastic four with a silver surfer. black panther film then they dont have to rehash origins again and again. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/32 "2017-12-08T23:51:54Z")
> [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](#): > > Can the MCU have two super-geniuses (Stark, Richards) without it being stupid? I figure Pym is already in the running. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/33 "2017-12-09T01:12:09Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > If I can ask a completely pointless question here–when did people start abbreviating the Fantastic Four as F4? At the end of the first movie, Human Torch writes F4 in flames (and encircled) in the sky just before the credits roll. –G! ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/34 "2017-12-09T02:07:52Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Hasn’t the ship sort of sailed on any kind of X-Men vs. Avengers movie? Hugh Jackman is done with Wolverine and I would think Thor, Iron Man and Caps actors are reaching the end of the road as far as wanting to go on. > > Who wants to watch a recast Logan Vs recast Steve Rogers??? > > As far as FF…they can always reboot it again… A reboot is a given for any characters they add, much like Spider-Man. As for the already-existing MCU characters, I think we’re going to see a lot of the old guard swept off the deck. Maybe the characters will actually die, or retire gracefully, but I think after Infinity War we ain’t gonna be seeing Cap, Iron Man or Thor for awhile. It’ll be Spidey and Black Panther on Earth while they likely go more cosmic with Doc Strange, GotG, Captain Marvel, etc. F4 could probably slot into that pretty easily. Adding back in the X-Men might make more sense as the next big shift after that. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/35 "2017-12-09T02:30:10Z")
On the scale of super intelligence, from the comics, Reed Richards is a 10, Doctor Doom is a 9.8, and Tony Stark is about a 6 or 7. Tony has more tech-smarts than just about anyone, but Reed and Victor are far beyond him. In the first Secret Wars series, The Molecule Man drops a mountain range on the heroes. The Hulk is just barely able to hold up the rock enough to give them a small cavity for a few minutes to survive. Reed Richards, without visible effort, rigs some parts from Hawkeye’s tech arrows and Spider-Man’s web shooters into a system he splices into the Iron Man armor. The device allows The Human Torch and Captain Marvel (the ‘living light’ version from that period, Monica Rambeau, now known as Spectrum, I think) to channel power into the armor, so the repulsors can make gravel out of a cubic kilometer of granite, freeing the heroes. Reed did this with only a few seconds to glance over the innards of the armor’s systems. He is far superior to Stark in every intellectual measure. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/36 "2017-12-09T02:51:12Z")
You see Tony Stark building things like armored suits and robots. You see Reed Richards building things like interdimensional portals and time machines. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/37 "2017-12-09T20:40:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You see Tony Stark building things like armored suits and robots. You see Reed Richards building things like interdimensional portals and time machines. Yeah, but the MCU’s already got an interdimensional-portals-and-time-machine genius. Has a photographic memory? Earned a doctorate? Is strange? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/38 "2017-12-09T23:26:59Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > If I can ask a completely pointless question here–when did people start abbreviating the Fantastic Four as F4? When I was a kid, we called them the FF. And we liked it that way! What’s with this F4 stuff? > > Not to pick on **iiandyiiii** –a lot of people do this–but it’s something that bugs me. > > And by the way, get off my lawn! FF has negative connotations and poor film performance leading to having manage expectations of failure. F4 is new and transformative and has a marvel/mcu signature that expects good things going forwards in the greater marvel universe. Seriously, I have no idea but I was more used to seeing FF as final fantasy than fantastic four ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/39 "2017-12-10T18:43:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Yeah, but the MCU’s already got an interdimensional-portals-and-time-machine genius. Has a photographic memory? Earned a doctorate? Is strange? Well, he’s a genius, sure, but he’s not really a \*portals \*genius. I mean, he didn’t invent magic portals - he learned how to do it at a school, as part of his first year studies, with a large number of other students, almost all of whom were better at it than he was. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765/40 "2017-12-10T19:58:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, he’s a genius, sure, but he’s not really a \*portals \*genius. I mean, he didn’t invent magic portals - he learned how to do it at a school, as part of his first year studies, with a large number of other students, almost all of whom were better at it than he was. But my point is, he’s a genius who already has Open-A-Portal stuff on tap – just like he’s a genius who, in effect, already has a time machine on him. I mean, if nobody else can do portals, being a ‘portals genius’ would be a really big deal; but oohing and aahing because Reed Richards is so smart that he – could figure out a way to do what Stephen Strange already knows how to do? A little less so. (And I’m not sure the He-Learned-How-To-Do-It-At-School bit helps: on the one hand, sure, it’s impressive that Reed figured it out instead of just finding out about it; but, on the other, that means emphasizing that he did it the hard way while the other guy did it the easy way – you know, while learning the finer points of forcefield conjuration and astral projection – by talking with folks who effectively threw in a flying-carpet cape. Like, full marks for doing the hard work of coming up with a new technique, but we don’t _actually_ praise the brains of a swordsman who put a lot of effort into being great; we praise the brains of a character who just shrugs and draws a pistol.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-mcu-gets-x-men-and-fantastic-four/803765.md?page=3)