# If Moral Presumptions Are the Problem... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-moral-presumptions-are-the-problem/830443 "2019-03-02T19:31:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-moral-presumptions-are-the-problem/830443/41 "2019-03-08T19:09:26Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > The problem here is that morals are to a large extent a communal endeavour; moral systems work best (and, frequently, only work at all) when they are shared. To have laws that recognise property ownership, say, and that penalize trespass and theft is to enforce the moral values that underpin these concepts on everyone in the community, regardless of whether they all share those values. So it’s not just a question of projecting our morals onto another culture or another community; it’s also - and perhaps even mainly - a question of projecting our morals onto individuals within our own culture/community. Have we any right to do this? > > (The moral nihilist would presumably say we have no right to do this, not least because he rejects the whole concept of a moral “right” to do anything at all.) Here ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-moral-presumptions-are-the-problem/830443/42 "2019-03-08T20:15:36Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Here Is \*\*UDS \*\*a moral nihilist? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-moral-presumptions-are-the-problem/830443/43 "2019-03-08T20:53:03Z")
If a tree falls on a nihilist does anyone care? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-moral-presumptions-are-the-problem/830443/44 "2019-03-09T03:29:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is \*\*UDS \*\*a moral nihilist? Presumably not, but I treat threads as an ongoing and semi linear conversation, especially when I quoted someone and responded to them, then you quoted my response and I responded to that. I assumed you read what I was responding to before making the argument against it, or that if you disagreed with both statements, you would have pointed that out. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-moral-presumptions-are-the-problem/830443/45 "2019-03-09T19:32:01Z")
My point is you said “no one has the right to impose morals” was the moral nihilist view, and then quote what \*\*UDS \*\*\*presumes \*them to think to substantiate this. If you think this is a circular argument actual moral nihilists make, quote an actual moral nihilist making the argument, or retract. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-moral-presumptions-are-the-problem/830443/46 "2019-03-10T21:08:53Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > As am I. But our preference for living in such a society is a subjective one, not an objective one. Do we have an argument for saying that our preference should be enforced against someone who doesn’t share it? Or, indeed, should be in any way privileged over the different and inconsistent preferences that others may have? I think you need to rewrite that sentence without the ‘should’. We’d prefer it. Actually, society prefers it. That’s the way it’s going to happen, because that’s what most people want. We (obviously) don’t get the moral high ground with moral nihilism. And that’s fine. > [@Littleman](#): > > Well, rule of the strongest wouldn’t need to be right or wrong, it’s not the base for MN. > It is Thrasymachus’ argument though and it fits most philosophy to some extent or another. > > The circular part is saying noone has a right to impose morals because they aren’t objectively good or bad. Because then noone has a right to restrict the imposition of morals , since the imposition can’t be objectively good or bad either. No one has any rights at all, (except by agreement). That’s not circular. If someone is imposing ‘morality’ on someone else, that’s no different to imposing immorality, or personal preference. People find it so hard to get away from ‘should’ and ‘rights’. If you just drop the whole shemozzle, it’d be a different conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-moral-presumptions-are-the-problem/830443/47 "2019-03-10T21:11:38Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Sure, but if you have been raised in a society that don’t, you likely would have no issue with it, and would likely support it. > > To give an example, we don’t find it acceptable to rape and plunder our neighbors, but on the other hand, we’re telling young men, not just that they can, but that they have a _moral duty_ to pick up weapons, go somewhere else and kill those other guys wearing funny costumes. I guess you can easily see how someone raised in a different culture could have a massive moral issue with this concept. > > And there’s no lack of people currently living who would be willing to justify this funny custom on moral grounds. Probably including you. So, I think that I can assume quite safely that these people (and you), if they’ve been raised in a culture that encouraged enslavement, rape and plunder would likely be perfectly fine with it and would justify it as well. Well, I wouldn’t justify it on moral grounds, and personally I don’t like it, and would rather it stopped. But yeah, culture plays a huge role in what people find acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2019, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-moral-presumptions-are-the-problem/830443/48 "2019-03-18T23:26:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > My point is you said “no one has the right to impose morals” was the moral nihilist view, and then quote what \*\*UDS \*\*\*presumes \*them to think to substantiate this. > > If you think this is a circular argument actual moral nihilists make, quote an actual moral nihilist making the argument, or retract. > [@Weedy](#): > > No one has any rights at all, (except by agreement). That’s not circular. > > If someone is imposing ‘morality’ on someone else, that’s no different to imposing immorality, or personal preference. Happy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-moral-presumptions-are-the-problem/830443.md?page=2)