# If most fighter pilots are Navy, then what does the Air Force do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 26, 2008, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197 "2008-02-26T06:21:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/21 "2008-03-01T01:30:08Z")
That was the \*total \* pilot heacount, fighters and otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/22 "2008-03-01T02:58:28Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] Or maybe that’s a misconception on my part. But it seems that the fighter pilots you hear about are usually aircraft carrier based, and so they’re members of the U.S. Navy. [/QUOTE] More a question of how, as mentioned, it’s often more “news” when a carrier gorup deploys and sees action, than the same for an Air Force group. Besides, within DoD ISTM the Navy Department has a vastly superior PR/Media Agent team than the Air Force or Army – think about it, how many military-related recent TV shows have been centered around Navy Department activities? (_Major Dad, Pensacola Wings of Gold, JAG, NCIS, etc._). Notice there’s a show about NCIS but not about Army CID. And what was the last Air Force-centric show? _I Dream of Jeannie_? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/23 "2008-03-01T03:19:47Z")
[QUOTE=JRDelirious] And what was the last Air Force-centric show? _I Dream of Jeannie_? 😉 [/QUOTE] _Call to Glory_, probably. Unless you count Bill being deployed during the run of _Designing Women_. But you’re right - the Navy just has more varied opportunities for dramatic footage. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/24 "2008-03-01T04:07:34Z")
[QUOTE=appleciders] This isn’t quite true- Wikipedia lists the B-52’s range as 11,000 miles, which is shy of halfway around the world. We could _maybe_ fly a B-52 from the mainland US to Iraq without refueling. Now, of course we could do the mission you suggest with mid-air refueling, but that’s true of any bomber capable of mid-air refueling, and way more expense that just operating out of Saudi Arabia. [/QUOTE] Last time I checked we have almost no military presence in Saudi Arabia. Not since 2003 or so. We have no Air Force units working out of Saudi Arabia. The only troops we have there are advisors/trainers to the Saudi military. Under 500. Things may have changed since the last time I heard about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/25 "2008-03-01T04:18:01Z")
[QUOTE=JRDelirious] what was the last Air Force-centric show? [/QUOTE] _Stargate SG-1_ and _Stargate Atlantis_. The latter is still on the air. \*\*\* Ponder ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/26 "2008-03-01T06:45:21Z")
Another advantage to out of theater operations centers for long range bombers is that you can have the same air wing drop ordinance on Iraq, and the next day drop it on Afghanistan, and the third day, drop it on the Congo. B2’s operate around the world, and are all based in the middle of the US. Easier to protect that way, and refueling in mid flight two or three times is a logistical practice that is no longer even the least bit unusual. Tris ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2008, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/27 "2008-03-01T07:20:34Z")
Conventional wisdom: Navy pilots are permitted to do anything that is not prohibited by regulations. Air Force pilots are \*prohibited \* from doing anything that is not \*permitted \* by regulations. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2008, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/28 "2008-03-02T03:25:11Z")
[QUOTE=Ponderoid] _Stargate SG-1_ and _Stargate Atlantis_. The latter is still on the air. \*\*\* Ponder [/QUOTE] And we’re back to the Jeannie archetype: a _fantasy_ show, where some characters happen to be dressed in Air Force uniforms. Could just as well be Starfleet. Compare the Navy-Department-based shows. Sure, like hell any JAG section is headed by a SEAL and includes a hot babe Marine and a studly fighter pilot (just to take one example), but the plots at least purported to be things that could happen, and they always managed to sneak in some flattery for the service. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/29 "2008-03-02T04:08:18Z")
[QUOTE=JRDelirious] And we’re back to the Jeannie archetype: a _fantasy_ show, where some characters happen to be dressed in Air Force uniforms. Could just as well be Starfleet. [/QUOTE] No, Starfleet was future!Navy. And I hate to admit it, but when I briefly considered joining the military about 10 years ago, the Navy had quite a bit of added appeal just because I could pretend I was in Starfleet and meet people with titles like “Ensign” and “Commander” _just like on Star Trek!_ In fact, I _still_ fantasize about being in the Navy and tell myself it would be _just like Star Trek!_ I just don’t take the thought as seriously now. ---
**Author:** ![RamRay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@RamRay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RamRay)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/30 "2014-04-08T15:13:35Z")
There is always this struggle between the branches as to who’s better. The Navy says that because they can land on a carrier, they are better; but that is just an added skill. As to total fighters, I think they count USMC planes as well as they are part of the Navy, so it is possible they may have a few more fighters…but TOTAL aircraft the Air Force has more. And perhaps the REAL test of who is better are the number of air-to air kills each has. The info below taken from the net gives a better picture of “WHO’S BETTER” **Conflict [Air-to-Air Kills] USAF kills USN/MC kills** WW I [Army Air Corps volunteers] 68 8 WW II [Army Air Force] 16,992 4,153 Korea 994 24 Vietnam 167 78 Libya assault 0 4 Gulf War 35 2 **TOTALS to date 18,256 4,269** SO, based on this, who has the better fighter pilots? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/31 "2014-04-08T15:24:05Z")
More importantly, can a zombie be taken out by an air-to-air missile? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/32 "2014-04-08T15:26:11Z")
> [@RamRay](#): > > There is always this struggle between the branches as to who’s better. The Navy says that because they can land on a carrier, they are better; but that is just an added skill. As to total fighters, I think they count USMC planes as well as they are part of the Navy, so it is possible they may have a few more fighters…but TOTAL aircraft the Air Force has more. > > And perhaps the REAL test of who is better are the number of air-to air kills each has. > The info below taken from the net gives a better picture of “WHO’S BETTER” > > **Conflict [Air-to-Air Kills] USAF kills USN/MC kills** > WW I [Army Air Corps volunteers] 68 8 > WW II [Army Air Force] 16,992 4,153 > Korea 994 24 > Vietnam 167 78 > Libya assault 0 4 > Gulf War 35 2 > **TOTALS to date 18,256 4,269** > SO, based on this, who has the better fighter pilots? Zombies probably don’t make good fighter jockies. That said, if the Air Force has had historically a greater number of pilots on duty compared to the Navy (say, at 4 to 1), than naturally they’re going to have greater raw number of air to air kills, even if the Navy pilots were out shooting Air Force pilots 2 to 1. I know that the Air Force and Navy have joint competitions/exercises in Nevada every year. Any way to get those numbers? ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/33 "2014-04-08T15:32:10Z")
Only if it’s flying a zombie aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/34 "2014-04-08T16:01:29Z")
As a former Navy brat and AF veteran, I knew this was not going to end well when I first saw the question. We are only missing a Marine aviator for the show to truly begin. Time to brawl 3, 2, …🙂 BTW, Navy rules. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/35 "2014-04-08T16:19:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > More importantly, can a zombie be taken out by an air-to-air missile? zombie or no that would take an a-to-z missile. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/36 "2014-04-08T17:08:38Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > zombie or no > > that would take an a-to-z missile. wins the thread ---
**Author:** ![JerrySTL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e274bd/32.png) [@JerrySTL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerrySTL)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/37 "2014-04-09T14:07:58Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Suppose we secure an airbase in a conflict on the other side of the world, such that the USAF can now use it in combat. Say, Afghanistan or Iraq. How does the USAF get its fighter planes to that base? Are they transported? Do they simply fly to the other side of the world, refueling on the way? What if there are issues about crossing someone’s airspace? About the only aircraft that are transported are helicopters as most don’t have the range to fly all that far. Many smaller helicopters don’t even have in-flight refueling ability. For fighter aircraft, they are flown. They have in-flight refueling capabilities plus most can carry external fuel tanks to greatly increase their range. As fighter aircraft don’t have any place to walk around and stretch your legs, they often will stop at places like Diego Garcia along the way. Sometimes Navy fighter aircraft will fly ahead of the carrier group to a forward base. They can operate from there for a while until their carrier shows up. ---
**Author:** ![RamRay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@RamRay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RamRay)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/38 "2014-04-10T12:39:36Z")
“That said, if the Air Force has had historically a greater number of pilots on duty compared to the Navy (say, at 4 to 1), than naturally they’re going to have greater raw number of air to air kills, even if the Navy pilots were out shooting Air Force pilots 2 to 1.” I know that the Air Force and Navy have joint competitions/exercises in Nevada every year. Any way to get those numbers?" -mlees Well mlees, not really; the actual number of air kills are by fighters only, so that kills your 4 to 1 advantage position. As the Navy is often on station first, they would have an advantage to air engagements, but the numbers are too heavy in favor of AF kills despite that advantage, so that kills your 2-1 position. What you are referring to is Red Flag exercises by the AF at Nellis AFB, Nevada. it was originally just for Air Force fighters (similar to TOP GUN), but it was very successful that by the late 1980’s, it was opened up to other allied nations’ Air Forces, NATO, …and even the Navy and USMC were part of the yearly exercises. Much credit has been given to Red Flag for the fairly smooth integration and coordination of the different air forces when they were involved in the different Gulf wars. I don’t know if those numbers are available, but it may not do you much good as it keeps score of different nations, who all take turns being aggressors and defenders in different group packages, so no clear “Air Force vs Navy” tabs. BTW, I have heard from F-15 jocks that say German, English and IDF pilots are as good or better than US pilots…from either the AF or the Navy. But that’s not the kind of thing Navy pilots admit to. ---
**Author:** ![RamRay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/82dd89/32.png) [@RamRay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RamRay)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/39 "2014-04-10T13:20:08Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Or maybe that’s a misconception on my part. But it seems that the fighter pilots you hear about are usually aircraft carrier based, and so they’re members of the U.S. Navy. If this country wants to position itself for attacks, say, in the Middle East, it sends an aircraft carrier to the Persian Gulf or the Arabian Sea and they send out the airplanes. So, assuming that the above is not too far off the mark, when would the Air Force fight? Would that not happen until and unless we experienced a full-scale military invasion on American soil? > > And, can Air Force fighter pilots be stationed on carriers, or be transfered over to the Navy if they’re needed there? OK, I did some research as to fighter aircraft in both branches as of 2013 (does not include F-35s): Air Force: 2,347 Navy+USMC: 1,020 In many situation when the US has a first response, it is usually from a carrier, hence why Navy aircraft are often first seen and get all the press. While carrier groups can be stationed near a conflict for first response, the Air Force can station fighters and bombers at friendly nation’s airbases and can also air fuel. In the Libyan attack in the 80’s, AF F-111’s dropped tons of bombs over Tripoli by flying from the UK and refueling. In the opening air assault in the gulf wars, most of the US aircraft involved were AF. Remember, a carrier can carry but so many fighters and cannot carry heavy bombers, so for a major, protracted battle, both Navy and Air Force power must be used. Long ago the Air Force mastered deployment to anywhere in the world, so can support US interests anywhere in the world. Navy aircraft are specially designed to land on carriers, Air Force aircraft are not, so Air Force aircraft cannot be “Transferred over” to the Navy. Yet many times Navy and Marine aircraft will refuel and rearm at AF bases, sometimes carrying out joint strikes with the Air Force. I do find it interesting however, that there are many more Naval and Marine pilots who request a tour in Air Force fighters than there are AF pilots wanting a tour on a carrier. While all this AF vs. Navy “My dad can kick your dad’s butt” stuff fun and entertaining, the US has enough enemies to make sure the Navy, Marines and AF all work well together; like brothers who fight all the time, let someone threaten the family and watch those brothers come together and really kick some butt! ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197/40 "2014-04-10T13:27:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > p.s. Some of the carrier based pilots are from the other services also. I didn’t mean to leave anyone out. This is incorrect. Only Naval Officers land on Aircraft carriers - Navy and Marine Corps Officers. Air Force and Army Officers do not. Air Force planes aren’t capabile to land on carriers, and the Air Force doesn’t fly in Navy planes. And as importantly, they don’t train or qualify to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-most-fighter-pilots-are-navy-then-what-does-the-air-force-do/439197.md?page=3)