# If murder was legal, would there be more murders? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754 "2011-11-22T15:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/21 "2011-11-22T17:54:09Z")
There are several individuals whom I would _consider_ killing if there were no consequences. Probably wouldn’t _now_, but on a specific day… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/22 "2011-11-22T17:56:40Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > Even if the abortion rate was lower when it was illegal - is the deterrent against abortion the threat of criminal punishment or the fact that illegal abortion is unsafe and is more likely to result in injury or death? Carrying a pregnancy to term is also more likely to result in injury or death\* than a medically induced abortion, especially for teenagers, who are most likely to seek abortions, so I doubt safety is much of a deterrent. \*other than for the foetus, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/23 "2011-11-22T18:02:08Z")
Yep jot me down as committing one; unless brutal torture, assault, and forced castration were legalized at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/24 "2011-11-22T18:03:08Z")
If murder were legal anyone remotely controversial would be dead. Do you really think Dawkins or Anne Coulter would be around? I vote we keep it illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/25 "2011-11-22T20:20:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Direct comparisons are difficult for obvious reasons; it’s hard to control for religion , access to contraception, sexual repression and so on. It’s presumably even harder to calculate the number of illegal abortions. > > [It does seem to be true though.](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html) Thanks for the cite. I didn’t read thru the whole thing, but does it suggest that abortion rates remain the same after abortion is legalized (or made illegal) in a given area? Since the question of the OP is whether making murder legal would increase, decrease, or have no effect on the number of murders. I suspect that the number of abortions, or murders, would appear to increase after either was legalized. Part of this would be formerly clandestine acts that were then performed publicly. But I would further expect that the overall number would increase. There were nowhere near as many illegal abortions in the US per year before Roe v. Wade as legal ones after. No doubt part of that is RU-486 and such, but increased availability and a change to the culture is, I suspect, much more of a factor. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/26 "2011-11-22T20:25:27Z")
There are enough people out there not wired quite right who would use killing before exhausting other measures first. I think murder would go way up. Good to keep it illegal. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/27 "2011-11-22T20:30:19Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > There are enough people out there not wired quite right who would use killing before exhausting other measures first. Other measures? Like maiming? ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/28 "2011-11-22T20:36:26Z")
Other measures like mediation if it’s a simple dispute, or legal channels if it was something on that order. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/29 "2011-11-22T20:37:38Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > Not always true. Illegal drug use in Portugal fell when all illegal drugs were decriminalized, and prison time was replaced with the offer of therapy. [Source](http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html). Decriminalization =/= legalization Edit: Plus, Portugal instituted a drug rehabilitation program in lieu of criminal penalties. ---
**Author:** ![Bloodless\_Turnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@Bloodless\_Turnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bloodless_Turnip)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/30 "2011-11-22T20:51:17Z")
Yes, by a substantial number. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/31 "2011-11-22T20:53:09Z")
> [@OpalCat](#): > > There are enough people out there not wired quite right who would use killing before exhausting other measures first. I think murder would go way up. Good to keep it illegal. Heck, there’d be a few people—and it only takes a few—who would kill people for fun/sport. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/32 "2011-11-22T21:20:48Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Heck, there’d be a few people—and it only takes a few—who would kill people for fun/sport. You say that as if there aren’t already 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/33 "2011-11-22T21:33:41Z")
First, I hope that all you guys claiming to have a list ready of the people you’d kill if it were legal to do so are joking! 😉 I have no motivation for killing anyone, in fact, I’d consider it morally wrong, regardless of it’s legality (imagine that!). BUT, I’m also a very practical person, IMHO. And as this thread proves, there are a lot of whackos out there, who would want to bump me off, and so I too would end up killing people left and right, but only as preemptive strikes. Co-worker gunning for the promotion I’m in line for? Kill him. Not because I want that promotion, or I value the promotion over his life, but because that bastard sure as heck is going to kill me for it! ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/34 "2011-11-22T21:33:55Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If murder were legal anyone remotely controversial would be dead. Do you really think Dawkins or Anne Coulter would be around? > > I vote we keep it illegal. But how many people would kill FOR them given that murder is legal? While I think the world would certainly become more dangerous and far less productive, I imagine that after some time, you would reach an equilibrium not that much higher than it is now. The reason I say that is because most people have someone that would kill for them as much as they do people who would want them killed. Just because someone may take the opportunity to kill me doesn’t mean my wife, brother, etc. would let it go. Therefore, committing a murder would be putting a price on your own head. That alone would stop most people from deciding to murder someone on a whim, or because they don’t like the books they write. There just really isn’t much of a reason to murder most people. It’s also worth noting that the the murder [clearance](https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/jr000243b.pdf) [rate](http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/may/24/unsolved-homicides/) has dropped in recent decades while the homocide [rate](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1963761,00.html) has also dropped. If fear of punishment were a major deterrent, I would think there would be more of a correlation there. While I am sure it keeps many decent people honest, so does a society embracing mutually assured destruction. I don’t think it would make for good policy, as you would see neighborhood thugs taking control, security firms working for people of means, and ordinary citizens afraid to leave their homes. Kinda like you see in many developing countries when the rich (people) do not rely on the legal system for safety. Even in war zones like Iraq, the well-connected and rich are not killed very often because they can afford great security. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/35 "2011-11-22T21:59:39Z")
In some places and times, there are no laws against murder. You can kill anyone you like, the only problem is that if you do, his friends and family are going to try to kill you. But, since you are part of a family, once they kill you, your friends and family are going to try to kill them. And on and on. There is an endless cycle of murder and revenge murder that can’t be stopped, because if we don’t kill one of them every time they kill one of ours then they can kill us anytime they like. The supposed deterrent to wanton murder turns into an engine that creates murder. This is why the first thing a government worthy of the name does is establish that no one except the authorities have the right to kill anyone. Not because Lord Pennybags gives a shit about some dead peasant, but because he wants his peasants working the lands and paying the vig, not killing each other. It’s not only an offense against the murdered peasant’s family, it’s an offense against Lord Pennybags and now he’s going to kick your ass, and your family isn’t going to do anything about it because Lord Pennybags will have them all killed if they try anything, and the ability to have those peasants killed is what makes him Lord Pennybags instead of some random schmuck. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/36 "2011-11-23T03:26:20Z")
What comes to my head is that October sees a sharp uprise in the murder rates in DC. Why? Because people start wearing heavy coats, making it easier to conceal weapons. Here are all these people, for whom something as small as a sweatshirt apparently makes the difference between killing and not bothering. In August, it would have been too much trouble. But in October, you’ve already got your gun with you, might as well go for it. Apparently, it doesn’t take that much to enable people to kill. I imagine we would see a huge uprise in murder. We’d also see a huge rise in rape and robbery, and those would be deadly far more often. We’d probably soon get private security firms and gated communities for the wealthy, which would just exacerbate crime everywhere else, South Africa style. It’d be ugly. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/37 "2011-11-23T03:36:47Z")
my guess is a jump shortly after and then, in a few years, there’ll be less incedents than before it was legalized. reason: the citizenry would have adjusted to ensure their protection. a return to the feudal system? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/38 "2011-11-23T04:14:45Z")
So, you think there were fewer murders per capita in Medieval Europe than there are today? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/39 "2011-11-23T04:17:44Z")
So, you think there were fewer murders per capita in Medieval Europe than there are today? How the heck does legalized murder lead to less murder? The fact that other people will murder you if you piss them off? Doesn’t that mean more murder, not less? If I kill someone today, I already have to worry about their family killing me. And I have to worry about the cops. Take away worrying about the cops, and the cost of murder drops dramatically. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754/40 "2011-11-23T04:20:34Z")
Societies built around small, deeply interconnected groups of people- like most agricultural societies- are a pretty poor analogy. Our society blends anonymity and social disconnect with exposure to large numbers of strangers. This is a much riper ground for murder than a small, deeply connected village. I much better comparison would be a fairly lawless urban area- like Johannesburg or Rio. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-murder-was-legal-would-there-be-more-murders/603754.md?page=3)