# If Newington Seceds from New Hampshire...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 2, 2001, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563 "2001-08-02T00:09:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/1 "2001-08-02T00:09:53Z")
Here’s the link [http://www.fosters.com/news2001c/july/30/po0730e.htm](http://www.fosters.com/news2001c/july/30/po0730e.htm) If you don’t know (and if you’re not from NH, there’s no reason you should have to) NH decided to pay for education with a state-wide property tax, which is the same from town to town. This means that some towns, like Newington, are paying more in taxes than they were before- which makes them “donor towns.” 14 towns think this is unfair, having to pay taxes to support education, and formed some sort colition against it; the colition brought it to the state supreme court claiming it was unconsitutional, but the court disagreed. Now there is talk about one of those colition towns, Newington, suceding from the state of NH. If they do (which is iffer than the article suggests, given reports from this evening’s news) sucede what would happen? Would they be adopted by another state, or be an idependent state or even country? ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/2 "2001-08-02T00:20:43Z")
That would be secession or seceding, first of all. If a city wanted to secede from a state, there is probably some procedure set up in that state’s constitution. It’s likely that a state may be allowed to secede and form its own state if: 1) Congress says it’s OK and 2) a majority of the voters in the state and in the area that wants to secede agree to do it. If you tried to secede and form a new country in the U.S., the precedent of the Civil War may be brought up. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/3 "2001-08-02T00:40:40Z")
Well, I have a feeling that it wouldn’t fly. Municpalities are generally seen as creatures of the state. Generally, they are given certain limited powers (zoning, etc.) and not much more, and in any event, those powers are revocable at will. I would say that if a city can’t hand out a parking ticket without the state’s permission, it certainly couldn’t secede. And somehow I doubt that NH would give up a nice juicy source of tax revenue. (Now, if the state constitution required it, that might be a different story.) I agree that Newington could not become an independant state or country without permission from congress. But if NH and Maine were both willing, it seems to me that Newington could be switched over. States have re-negotiated their boundaries in the past, haven’t they? (standard disclaimer about legal advice) ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/4 "2001-08-02T01:58:03Z")
IIRC, the U.S. Constitution says that no state can have land taken away from it without the permission of the state’s legislature. Congress could not force a land switch that the states involved did not approve of. ---
**Author:** ![MrDeath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@MrDeath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDeath)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/5 "2001-08-02T02:32:45Z")
Generally, in order to be a country, you have to have at least the following: [ul] [li] A government. Newington presumably has this.[/li][li] A delineated territory. Newington presumably has this.[/li][li] Hi Opal![/li][li] A means of defending said territory from invasion. Newington probably does not have this.[/li][li] Recognition of its nationhood status by other recognised countries.[/li][/ul] In fact, what comprises a country is pretty vague. Certainly, some well-defined entities like Chad and Belarus are countries; but is Taiwan a country? It has the first three items in this list nailed fairly cold, and it has been recognised as a nation by quite a few (mostly smallish) recognised countries. Is the Principality of Sealand a country? [They think so](http://www.sealandgov.com/), although to the best of my knowledge no other country recognizes them. Do the Colombian or Sri Lankan rebels run a country? How about the Turks (or Greeks for that matter) in Cyprus? Palestine? East Timor? Certainly, if Newington declared independence and withstood attacks from the U.S. military, it could be considered a legitimate country. Given the town’s location, bordering Pease Air Force Base, a military attack would seem inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![MrDeath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@MrDeath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDeath)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/6 "2001-08-02T02:43:48Z")
Pease AFB was closed in 1991. Teach me to go by old maps. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/7 "2001-08-02T03:39:55Z")
Let’s assume that Newington could “seccede.” All that they could do is revoke their charter which made them an incorporated entity. They would go back to being an unincorporated entity. IN other words, a bunch of people living in close proximity to each other without any kind of large governmental organization. And they would still have to pay taxes. You live in NH, you gotta pay whatever taxes are levied. You don’t like it, move to another state. The end. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/8 "2001-08-02T05:20:59Z")
Ah, but you’ve got to bear in mind that this is the “Live Free or Die” state, the state whose constitution entrenches the people’s right to revolution as a constitutional right. The [New Hampshire State Constitution](http://www.state.nh.us/constitution/billofrights.html) provides: > [@](#): > > l0. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance ag ainst arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind. So, as a matter of state constitutional law, the citizens of New Hampshire (or presumably only a portion of them, such as the town of Newington) have the right to revolt against the state government. If they are successful in doing so, presumably they could petition for admission as a new state (following the example of West Virginia), or to join another state. True, there is the guarantee of a state’s integrity in Article IV of the federal Constitution, but if you have to wonder, if the state constitution implicitly permits seccession from itself, and secession occurs, with no attempt by the seceding municipality to secede from the United States, would Article IV apply? Cannot a state govern its own dismemberment without those buttinskis in Congress and the Supreme Court getting involved? Live free, Newington!! ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/9 "2001-08-02T06:25:48Z")
But a Right of Revolution doesn’t necessarily give you a right to secede. I would interpret that section to mean that the people of New Hampshire could rise up and change its entire state government, but I don’t think a few people could just pack up and leave. However, I do think it would be interesting if someone forced the issue. The biggest problem in all this would be the practicalities. Most likely there aren’t enough people in Newington that Congress would even consider them for statehood. ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/10 "2001-08-02T06:37:51Z")
In the early 1980s, Block Island residents agitated to secede from Rhode Island over some inane issue like their ability to restrict mopeds from the mainland. They probably hoped to be adopted by Connecticut, but Colorado governor Richard Lamm (Reform Party frontrunner in 1996 until Perot cut him off at the knees) joked that Colorado lobster had a nice ring to it. I’m sure they’d go great with Rocky Mountain oysters. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BobT \* > **If a city wanted to secede from a state, there is probably some procedure set up in that state’s constitution. It’s likely that a state may be allowed to secede and form its own state if: 1) Congress says it’s OK and 2) a majority of the voters in the state and in the area that wants to secede agree to do it.** The cities, counties, or other areas of the state that wish to secede do not necessarily have a direct say in these decisions, for the reasons stated by **lucwarm**. If the state’s constitution provides for a popular vote of these residents, or input from the local governing bodies, so be it. But otherwise, the state’s free to act as it sees fit, subject only to US law and the state constitution. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lucwarm \* > \*\*I agree that Newington could not become an independant state or country without permission from congress. > > But if NH and Maine were both willing, it seems to me that Newington could be switched over. States have re-negotiated their boundaries in the past, haven’t they?\*\* Indeed they have. But this requires approval of Congress. The most obvious reason would seem to be > [@](#): > > Article IV, Section. 3. > Clause 1: New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress. However, in a recent Supreme Court case\*, Article I was invoked > [@](#): > > Article I, Section 10 > Clause 3: No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay. **Northern Piper** , you are suggesting the rebels not be burdened by Congress, but then apply for statehood. Hmmm. I think in order for their actions to be valid, Congress would have to accept that the government in Concord actually met the constitutional criteria you describe. This is roughly the principle that applied with West Virginia, the legal term for which is “expedience.” Then these freedom fighters could be granted their own state or territory. While I look forward to a test case, I’m not sure how this can be done without Congressional approval. Otherwise, you’ve just got a Conch Republic. \*[New Jersey v. New York, 1998](http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/120ORIG.ZO.html) > [@](#): > > Although we took jurisdiction over the suit, New Jersey v. New York, 5 Pet. 284 (1831), it was never tried to judgment. Instead, the States once again negotiated and in 1833 actually reached agreement. Each enacted the terms into law, 1834 N. Y. Laws, ch. 8; 1833-1834 N. J. Laws, pp. 118-121, and jointly they sought the approval of Congress under the Compact Clause of the United States Constitution, Art. I, §10, cl. 3. Congressional consent came with the Act of June 28, 1834, ch. 126, 4 Stat. 708. ---
**Author:** ![SirRay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@SirRay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirRay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/11 "2001-08-02T12:56:30Z")
> [@](#): > > The Wendover [Utah] city council has voted 4-1 in favor of becoming part of Nevada.To move the state line, proponents still need the backing of the Utah Legislature, the West Wendover city council, the Nevada Legislature and Congress. [http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/052801/usn\_utahtowns.shtml](http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/052801/usn_utahtowns.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Phouchg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/41988e/32.png) [@Phouchg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phouchg)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/12 "2001-08-02T14:12:25Z")
I used to live and work in the area. Newington is primarily know for two things within its corporate limits: - a portion of Pease International Tradeport (the current incarnation of the former Pease AFB). - every conceivable chain and big box mega store know to mankind - plus two large malls. NH has no sales tax, Maine has a 5% sales tax. I’m sure Maine would love all that tax revenue from Home Depot and Barnes and Noble. Besides, if Newington abolished the town government and reestablished themselves, would they now be “New Newington”? Phouchg ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/13 "2001-08-02T14:41:00Z")
…and these people are _stupid_. “Oh, the evil vicious oppressive government is making us _pay taxes_ so that other kids in New Hampshire can be reasonably assured of a decent education! To arms, comrades!” I’m really trying to see how they think the “ends of government are perverted, and the public liberty manifestly endangered” by having to shell out a few more bucks to give kids across the state some more up-to-date schoolbooks. It’s not like they don’t have representation in the state legislature in the first place. This whole secession thing is just an attention-getting ploy. I wonder how many of the signatories own commercial property in town? Having gotten that out of my system, geographically it would be possible to secede and join Maine since they’re not out in the middle of the state somewhere but right on the border. (Pease International Tradeport, indeed.) Of course, if Maine’s property taxes are on an equal level to NH’s, the point is moot. (According to this [study](http://www.gcglaw.com/resources/economic/proptax.html), however, Maine has repealed its property tax for education funding.) Their population in 1998 was a whopping 925 inhabitants - probably not enough to make their own county with their own tax policies - although that would probably still subject them to the state’s tax policies on one level or another. How bad is it gonna hurt the state if they successfully petition the federal government to move to Maine? In 1995-96, New Hampshire generated $2.6 billion in state and local government tax revenue according to the CRC Online Almanac [here](http://www.crcmich.org/ALMANAC/GOVTFINC/STATEREV/slf-totaltax-96.html). The newspaper article **elfkin** cited says they expect to pay $2.1 million this year for education because of the [Claremont decision](http://www.fernald2000.com/school%20funding.htm), a federal order that NH find a more equitable approach to taxing towns (check out the links page for a lot of info!). Overall in 1999, Newington paid $5.4 million in state taxes - 0.5% of the 1996 budget and probably about the same for the 1999 budget. A [summary](http://www.tnh.unh.edu/Issues/100899/main.html) of an article at UNH’s online paper says the Claremont decision has resulted in a state budget shortfall of $100 million. So if Claremont takes off, the state education budget drops another $2 million. Good thinking, guys. Way to keep public liberty out of danger. Constitutionally? I have no idea whether they’ve got the right to do it or not. They claim to under Article 10 of the NH state constitution, but again, their definition of perverted government and endangered public liberty seems selfish at best and tortured at worst. I’m more of the opinion that an underfunded public education system is an endangerment to public liberty than a raise in taxes. Practically? I don’t think they have a snowball’s chance in hell. They would probably have better success trying to get out of paying income tax by moving to Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/14 "2001-08-02T14:44:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by myself_ > **So if Claremont takes off…** That should read “So if _Newington_ takes off…” ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/15 "2001-08-02T14:46:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SirRay \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > The Wendover [Utah] city council has voted 4-1 in favor of becoming part of Nevada.To move the state line, proponents still need the backing of the Utah Legislature, the West Wendover city council, the Nevada Legislature and Congress. > > [http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/052801/usn\_utahtowns.shtml](http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/052801/usn_utahtowns.shtml) \*\* I couldn’t find any cites, but I’ve heard similar stories about Decker, Montana attempting to become part of Wyoming. Decker is near the border, and the closest town of any size is Sheridan, WY, about 20 miles away. They were basically cheesed off about Montana wanting them to go to Billings for things related to dealing with the state, probably 100 or so miles distant. Supposedly, there was also a flap about getting the gravel road to the major highway junction in Wyoming paved. The people in Decker thought they were more logically part of Wyoming, and petitioned to change states. IIRC, the road is paved now. But they are still Decker, Montana. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/16 "2001-08-03T02:38:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BobT \* > **But a Right of Revolution doesn’t necessarily give you a right to secede.** Why not? The 13 colonies used their right of revolution to secede from the British Empire. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by dqa_ > **Northern Piper,** you are suggesting the rebels not be burdened by Congress, but then apply for statehood. Hmmm.\*\* No, I’m not suggesting they’re not burdened by Congress - merely replying to **BobT’s** mention of that pesky Civil War precedent. I’m suggesting that if the citizens of Newington exercise their right of revolution to secede from the State of New Hampshire, but without asserting any right to secede from the Union itself, then the Civil War precedent is irrelevant. If, by state law, they cease to be part of the state, then, as territory not belonging to any state, they would be free to petition for admission as a state, or to join another state. Onwards, Newington!! [sidebar]Did the Legislature of Virgina ratify the creation of West Virginia, as required by Article IV, s. 3? or was it purely a question of war-time expediency?[/sidebar] ---
**Author:** ![Cabbage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Cabbage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabbage)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2001, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/17 "2001-08-03T02:53:33Z")
Not that it’s necessarily analogous, still, this reminds me of the early/mid 80’s in Florida. In their effort in the war on drugs, the federal government set up a “border patrol” on the highway leading from the Keys into mainland Florida; cars and individuals could be subject to search and seizure. The citizens of Key West declared themselves “The Conch Republic” and independent of the U.S.; the federal government backed out of the plan. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/18 "2001-08-14T16:55:37Z")
Rye, N.H., another “donor” town 5 or 10 miles from Newington is now talking secession too. They don’t want to set up an independent country or state, nor do they want to join Maine. They want to join Alaska, of all places. There’s no legal requirement for two parts of a state to be contiguous, but it still seems bizarre. [http://www.fosters.com/news2001c/august/14/po0814g.htm](http://www.fosters.com/news2001c/august/14/po0814g.htm) Alaska would be a much better place for the “live tax-free or die” mentality than would Maine. Neither New Hampshire nor Alaska has any tax on earned income, and neither has a state-wide sales tax. On the other hand, Maine’s top income-tax rate is 8.5% and the sales tax is 5%. It’s interesting to note that 8 of the donor towns form a contiguous area along the Seacoast, and might conceivably act together in whatever they do. The 7 towns are Newington, Portsmouth, New Castle, Rye, North Hampton, Hampton, Hampton Falls, and Seabrook. These 8 towns have an aggregate population of about 56,000. ---
**Author:** ![barker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@barker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barker)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/19 "2001-08-14T17:24:59Z")
Re: West Virfinia After the Union victory at the Battle of Philippi northwestern Virginia was occupied by General McClellan. A convention was held and the Restored, or Reorganized, Government of Virginia was established and recognized by the US as the legitimate government. In October of 1861, voters in thirty-nine counties in western Virginia approved the formation of a new Unionist state. Union troops were stationed at many of the polls to prevent Confederate sympathizers from voting. The reformed government approved the action. ---
**Author:** ![Phouchg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/41988e/32.png) [@Phouchg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phouchg)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563/20 "2001-08-14T17:52:32Z")
Seabrook a donor town?? You’re kidding, right? Everybody who has driven through there knows that the major value in the town is the nuclear power plant and all the businesses along route 1 (not counting the tattoo parlors, bars and fireworks stores). Seabrook, despite the pretty name, has the reputation of being, um, how shall I put this, “slightly out of the high rent district.” But Seabrook is part of the Winnacunnet School Administrative Union (along with Hampton, Hampton Falls and North Hampton - all rather wealthy towns) so I guess they would have to be dragged along. Phouchg Lovable Rogue [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-newington-seceds-from-new-hampshire/74563.md?page=2)