# If not a wall, what should there be at the border? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937 "2017-05-18T17:14:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/41 "2017-05-19T11:09:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There is a great deal of opposition to the wall being built on the border, but I would like to ask what the alternative is, then: It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Assuming you intend to participate in your own thread, please let us know. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/42 "2017-05-19T11:20:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Teehee. > > (oh, and Texas, California & Mexico have a shared Spanish colonial heritage, you know ?) New Mexico, Arizona, Florida, Louisiana… would like to sit at the table too ☹ > [@snowthx](#): > > I am not sure of the process here, but wouldn’t making the immigration/guest worker process more efficient (faster, safer) discourage people from entering illegally, thereby reducing the need for a wall or other structure? I agree strengthening of enforcement of drug trafficking laws would be good, tho. That worked well for Spain re. immigrants from Latin America; it’s not working so well for African and Middle Eastern origins, but these come from places where often the step of getting them the information on how to enter legally is already very, very difficult. I agree that attacking the issue at its origin, either through information or aid, is much better than deterrence at the border. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/43 "2017-05-19T11:30:55Z")
My very general opposition to doing ANYTHING expensive at the southern border, is that it’s illogical. Building a wall, or setting up high cost observation and interdiction forces, ignores the rest of the reason why there is a problem. I fix STUFF for a living, and I know from doing that since forever, that if you only deal with ONE symptom, the over all problems will remain, and usually get worse. Biggest thing being ignored in most discussions like this: how hard it already is on the people who cross, to get here. People are willing to go through the danger and expense for reasons. Those reasons are what have to be addressed, not just slap a patch over the border, which is all that this Great Wall of Trumpishness would be. The American economy is trying to force wages down as the primary solution for business expansion. That’s the main problem. And I’m not saying that offering higher wages is the real fix, I’m pointing out that businesses all looking to hire the cheapest workers they can, and their eagerness to hire ANYONE non questions asked, are what gives the people down there the incentive to go through what they already do, in order to cross. The main reason why the Republican Party in particular keeps pointing south and yelling about illegal immigrants, isn’t because we need a wall. They do it because that distracts everyone from realizing that their fifty year long effort to “fix” the economy by eliminating employee rights, eliminating all employee benefits (such as paid health care), and lower everyone’s wages is what the real core Republican Economic Concept is based on. The Democrats harp on foreigners taking jobs for a similar reason, only they aren’t as organized as the GOP is about it, so at least half of them vaguely think it has something to do with civil rights, so they get confused. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/44 "2017-05-19T11:50:53Z")
There’s simply no good reason for a wall – it’s a political gambit. You can’t even support it as a public works project, as it’s something that the public generally doesn’t even use and thus provides no lasting economic value. Stepped up enforcement of immigration laws is really all that is needed. Obama was actually doing that, but Trump has taken it a notch higher, and unlike Obama, created an atmosphere in which undocumented immigrants feel unwelcome. You can find fault with Trump’s tactics, but there’s no doubting the fact that he’s been successful so far in reducing the flow of immigrants over the border. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/45 "2017-05-19T12:17:39Z")
The way to address this problem is the same way they should be addressing the drug problem, at the demand side. Start sending people who hire undocumented workers to jail and the demand for those workers drops off. The supply will naturally follow. The economic benefits to the workers are so great that catching one of them simply produces a replacement. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/46 "2017-05-19T12:18:12Z")
I would suggest killer robots, but I admit some bias since this would be good for my research program into killer robots. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/47 "2017-05-19T12:19:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > New Mexico, Arizona, Florida, Louisiana… would like to sit at the table too ☹ Oh yes. That was by no means an exhaustive list. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/48 "2017-05-19T12:24:58Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > I would suggest killer robots, but I admit some bias since this would be good for my research program into killer robots. Post. Username. x20 C-c-c-combo ! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/49 "2017-05-19T13:12:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Maybe we need a force shield! Trump just said that organized drug gangs from other countries have _literally_ taken over towns and cities in the U.S., and I was wonder what the fuck is he referring to? WHAT towns and cities? Why, all those sanctuary cities, of course. Why else would they be sanctuary cities? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Terrific](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tom_terrific/32/342_2.png) [@Tom\_Terrific](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Terrific)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/50 "2017-05-19T13:18:59Z")
My guess is the MS 13 on Long Island. [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/28/nyregion/jeff-sessions-ms-13-gang-long-island.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/28/nyregion/jeff-sessions-ms-13-gang-long-island.html) > **[New York launches task force to combat MS-13 gang on Long Island after recent...](https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-launches-task-force-to-combat-ms-13-gang-on-long-island-after-recent-murders)** > > Officials in New York announced a new anti-gang initiative on Wednesday to crack down on violence by the MS-13 street gang plaguing communities on Long Island, including four murders earlier this month. > **[Violent MS-13 Gang Has More Than 200 Hardcore Members on Long Island, Preys...](https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/ms-13-gang-killings-long-island-fbi-police/111393/)** > > Whether it’s the two teenage girls in Brentwood or the four young friends found killed in Central Islip, victims of the violent MS-13 gang are turning up in alarming numbers on Long Island. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/51 "2017-05-19T14:00:00Z")
Maybe they should set up stings at the day labor spots to arrest anyone attempting to hire a day laborer, kind of like they do with people who solicit prostitutes. This wall stuff is silly. Every person in my family who came here from Mexico came illegally and they all paid around 2400 US dollars to get a coyote and pay the bribes. The wall doesn’t help when the people manning it are so quick to take that money. (Don’t worry I’m not “harboring EElegals”. They’re all back in Mexico now. Thanks Obama.) Or we could recognize that illegal immigration was already going down and invest in something useful for the citizens of our country. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/52 "2017-05-19T14:29:34Z")
I’ve heard estimates of between $20 billion and $35 billion for this wall(with ghod knows how much more for maintenance and staffing), and I think a question that has to be asked is: Even if this wall is effective, is it actually _cost_ effective? Is $20-30 billion dollars of net harm being done by those who cross our border to the south by land(which is certainly not the only way to gain access)? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/53 "2017-05-19T14:49:26Z")
I would love to see a CBA on different options, but thus far I have been unable to find one. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Terrific](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tom_terrific/32/342_2.png) [@Tom\_Terrific](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Terrific)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/54 "2017-05-19T15:09:26Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > Maybe they should set up stings at the day labor spots to arrest anyone attempting to hire a day laborer, kind of like they do with people who solicit prostitutes. > > This wall stuff is silly. Every person in my family who came here from Mexico came illegally and they all paid around 2400 US dollars to get a coyote and pay the bribes. The wall doesn’t help when the people manning it are so quick to take that money. (Don’t worry I’m not “harboring EElegals”. They’re all back in Mexico now. Thanks Obama.) > > Or we could recognize that illegal immigration was already going down and invest in something useful for the citizens of our country. I have a question for you, being the only person I know of that has relatives who came illegally, where did they get the money for the coyote and to pay the bribes? I’ll make a guess and say the first person helped the second and so on, but where did the first person get the money? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/55 "2017-05-19T15:46:39Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > I thought this was Great Debates where questions were asked seriously and answered seriously. Instead it’s jokes, guffaws, and dog whistles to each other. > > Is it that you’re afraid to actually come right out and say you want open boarders? > > If not why not answer the question asked? I actually did answer the question - what’s already there at the border is exactly perfect, even if it’s a rusting old three-foot chain-link fence that only serves to leak rust into the nearest city’s water table, because nothing else we could physically do at the border would be cost effective. Any money you would consider spending would be spend on other projects, possibly including targeted police/FBI agents to round up people who are ACTUALLY a problem, which is a class that I don’t consider to include border jumpers at the border. If you’re actually concerned about border jumpers, you’d spend the billions on a large task force that clandestinely identifies illegals, trails them to their workplace, and then fines the living hell out of their employers for hiring illegals. Sure, this might destroy the agriculture sector, but it would definitely reduce the appeal of border jumping if we eliminated jobs for border jumpers. Oh, and then after doing all that the organization can politely deport the now-unemployed border jumpers before they become poor(er) and desperate and start doing things we all regret. As you might have gathered from my comment about destroying the agriculture sector, I think spending money on such a task force would do more harm than good - the time and money would be better spent going after drug and gun smugglers. But I’m willing to allow for the possibility that things could be improved by destroying the culture that allows employers to exploit illegal immigrants, so if that’s something we want to do, go ahead. Just, don’t build a wall. That’s just stupid. In fact, it’s basically a bad joke - which inspires the other jokes in this thread. A giant moat full of rubber duckies might be incredibly stupid, but I put forth that it’s no stupider than the wall. ---
**Author:** ![BeeGee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@BeeGee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeeGee)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/56 "2017-05-19T18:05:34Z")
> [@syncrolecyne](#): > > As a resident of the Texas border, I favor a more comprehensive border policy over a “magic bullet” solution that will resolve nothing. > > 1. Most migration is from far southern Mexico and especially northern Central America. A real peace process in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras (which is essentially a low-intensity combat zone), coupled with better security in that area is essential. > 2. A drug policy that will eliminate the worst of the drug war. Decriminalizing Marijuana and fighting the opiate and meth epidemic requires a consistent policy across North America. > 3. A temporary work program that will allow for short-term, seasonal migration to farming areas. The policies of the last 30 years effectively “trap in” the people who would generally prefer to be seasonal migrants between Mexico and the U.S. This can’t be like the old “Bracero” program, but a system that creates real retirement benefits for Mexican retirees and work safety protections. > 4. Mexico is already becoming a middle income country, overall. Its infrastructural growth (i.e. a new highway and bridge network that cuts travel from the Pacific to the Gulf dramatically) is already transforming the border economy. It is becoming faster for Texas and U.S. southern commodities to reach the Mexican coast than it is to go to Long Beach. This is big for American exports. > 5. There are actually three borders at this point, the checkpoints that line Mexico around the 28th kilometer within their border zone, the border line itself, and the U.S. checkpoint line around 50 miles north of the border. American political rhetoric tends to focus on the line, but the reality for the last few decades is that the border is a zone, not a fixed line. A wall will have many complex consequences for all of the communities that are in the border zone and depend heavily on cross-border trade, wholesale and retail commerce, and cross-border industries. Thank you! May I add stiff penalties for those who employ workers who are here illegally? As well as stiffer penalties for providing false documents to anyone at all. Of course Perry’s opposed to it. He supports the Trans Texas Corridor. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/57 "2017-05-19T20:57:37Z")
Nothing. Borders are a crime against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/58 "2017-05-19T21:12:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can we have the same type of wall that surrounds Israel? Israel guards their wall … the US doesn’t (at least not very well) … hire more border agents in the answer … wall or no wall … stop that cheap imitation honey coming across the border from Canadian maple trees … ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/59 "2017-05-19T23:24:38Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Remove incentives to work and the feasibility of working illegally in the US. Any US citizen who knowingly employs an illegal worker gets a financial punishment, and then is deported with the worker. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/60 "2017-05-19T23:36:27Z")
Oops, no, you can’t deport U.S. citizens. Fines, yes. Imprisonment, yes. Exiling? Not permitted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937.md?page=4)