# If not a wall, what should there be at the border? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937 "2017-05-18T17:14:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/81 "2017-05-21T14:36:39Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Finally, to those arguing the wall/fence/etc is an expense without a return… So what? Who said there needs to be one? Fire departments don’t make a profit. Sane with a wall. Fire departments minimize fire damage and loss of life - that’s how there is a cost benefit for them. What benefits will there be from a border wall? More expensive oranges, mostly. You can show how the U.S. would have lower welfare/benefits expenses but that has to be weighed against taxes that many of these illegal immigrants pay. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/82 "2017-05-21T22:39:56Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Depends on the goal, really. If it’s to prevent irregular immigration we’d be better served with fewer - and better enforced - visas. That combined with an end to the ability to wire money to Latin America would remove ability and incentive to come here to work without going through channels. You want to make it even harder to come legally, and stop the ability to transfer money out of the country? I guess there’s always a constituency for the sort of extreme protection/isolationism we associate with Stalinist régimes. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/83 "2017-05-21T22:44:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We could put tollbooths in the desert and make a [shitload of dimes.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw8hcXBA7X4) > > I don’t think any additional physical barrier is a good idea. Better to allow people to cross over, work, and take the money back to their families. Or help the Mexican government create jobs in their own country. I’d rather send the money to Mexico to improve their infrastructure and create jobs in Mexico than build a wall. I don’t always agree with **BobLibDem** , but I do here. There’s no real need for a physical “border.” We already use other methods to determine who is or is not a legal resident. An open border allows people to cross in both directions for business, which creates value, and is particularly important to border towns. A wall or fence is absurdly expensive to build, does active harm to US citizens who lose their property to its construction, and will always be cheaply evaded. It does lots of evil and no real good. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/84 "2017-05-21T22:58:23Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Remove incentives to work and the feasibility of working illegally in the US. While you’re removing incentives (and thus presumably opportunities) to work, what happens to legal residents? Are you proposing a radical post-labor economy, where no one is allowed to be paid for work? No? Not practical? Well, neither is your idea. The USA is one of the largest and most populous polities on Earth and in the history of mankind. You can’t stop some amount of migrant labor without the “proper” visas from happening. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/85 "2017-05-21T23:03:10Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > I thought this was Great Debates where questions were asked seriously and answered seriously. Instead it’s jokes, guffaws, and dog whistles to each other. > > Is it that you’re afraid to actually come right out and say you want open boarders? > > If not why not answer the question asked? I’m not afraid. Open borders used to be considered a good thing! Globalism, open borders, maybe boarders too. What are you, a Stalinist? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/86 "2017-05-21T23:22:26Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > The way to address this problem is the same way they should be addressing the drug problem, at the demand side. Start sending people who hire undocumented workers to jail and the demand for those workers drops off. The supply will naturally follow. The economic benefits to the workers are so great that catching one of them simply produces a replacement. What I’m reading is that you want to reduce employment opportunities and labor demand in your own country. This will of course also lower the price of labor performed by citizens like yourself. > [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > No. > > The problem with invasions is the killing people and smashing their shit part, not the crossing an arbitrary and morally-irrelevant line on a map part. Sadly, many in the USA think that killing people and smashing their shit is A-OK if it’s on your territory, or territory your side conquered and claim as their sovereign land. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > I think ice cream stands would be good. It’s hot there. I like shave ice better but I want to appeal to a broader swath of the population. Wouldn’t shaved ice be better for broad appeal? Some of us are lactose-intolerant. > [@DWMarch](#): > > Let’s talk about what a closed and I mean really closed border would look like. (Trigger warning: hyperbole follows) > > [SNIP] > > Now that’s how you secure a goddamn border like an American! :claps: > [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > Are there numbers for how many Canadians give birth in the USA for citizenship benefits? Oh, great, another attack on Bill Richardson! Of course, the case of Ted Cruz implies that USAians give birth in Canada for citizenship benefits, which should help you understand why we aren’t walling off Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/87 "2017-05-21T23:33:58Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > What I’m reading is that you want to reduce employment opportunities and labor demand in your own country. This will of course also lower the price of labor performed by citizens like yourself. . . . I’d always heard it analyzed the other way around: if undocumented workers can’t work, then that increases opportunities…for the kind of work Americans traditionally don’t do. This forces wages to go higher, to attract citizens to pick cabbage, which drives up the cost of produce (and a lot of other goods and services.) It’s still bad for everyone, but I think it does so by forcing costs up, not down. (It would also produce a huge helpless underclass, forced to survive by black-market labor…or ordinary crime. It’s almost as stupid as the proposal to deny education to “illegals.”) ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/88 "2017-05-22T01:22:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There is a great deal of opposition to the wall being built on the border, but I would like to ask what the alternative is, then: > > As I understand it, the border between the USA and Mexico has a varied number of features; in some places a metal fence, in some other places…nothing? Some signs? > > Do the folks who oppose the wall want just the status quo - some places fenced, some places not? > > What features should the border between the USA and Mexico \*ideally \*feature? (That is, within the US government’s power to install, not the Mexican government’s power.) Should there be a dotted line saying “This is the border?” There presumably needs to be something to delineate the boundary. Welcome signs? A fence, but not a big wall? How abut what’s there already, which is essentially a big metal good neighbor fence. There are families who are split on both sides of the fence who come there to talk, which they could not do if it was a solid wall. Fix the weak spots but good God, who wants to ruin the view to build a wall on EITHER side of the Rio Grande? Plus there are many ways to bring drugs across the border; a wall won’t stop that. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/89 "2017-05-22T15:34:21Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’d always heard it analyzed the other way around: if undocumented workers can’t work, then that increases opportunities…for the kind of work Americans traditionally don’t do. This forces wages to go higher, to attract citizens to pick cabbage, which drives up the cost of produce (and a lot of other goods and services.) > > It’s still bad for everyone, but I think it does so by forcing costs up, not down. > > (It would also produce a huge helpless underclass, forced to survive by black-market labor…or ordinary crime. It’s almost as stupid as the proposal to deny education to “illegals.”) It’s not bad for everyone. It’s certainly bad for those who hire undocumented workers. Instead of a small fine that doesn’t even approach the savings they accrue by hiring the undocumented they get a large fine and a jail term. They hire the undocumented to save money. They have a purely fiscal incentive to do so. Their fiscal incentive is limited to the marginal cost between an undocumented worker and what it would cost to hire a legal citizen, so the fiscal incentive to hire the foreign labor is pretty limited. What are we talking about here, $5 an hour difference, maybe $10? Therefore it doesn’t take much of a disincentive to stop the hiring. Now, look at the people coming in from other countries. They have a huge fiscal incentive to come here. A quick glance on the interwebs shows that laborer wages in Mexico hover around $5 a day. Even as an undocumented worker you can easily make ten times that amount in the US, therefore, it requires a huge disincentive to stop the flow of workers. The hiring is the bottleneck. Frequent random checks of employers and swift punishment of those hiring undocumented workers will stop employment of undocumented workers. Wages will perforce rise to get workers legally in this country to do the necessary work. The lack of a job supply stops illegal immigration, the coyotes get put out of business, people stop dying while sneaking across the border, my produce costs go up a few dollars a week, housing prices increase a bit, it all comes around. And maybe if the best and the brightest of foreign countries weren’t sneaking into the US to take jobs hanging sheet rock or driving taxicabs they’d stay home and improve conditions in their own countries. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/90 "2017-05-22T16:01:23Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > We seem to be getting away from the rubber duckies. , , , . The duckies are cool. As I was falling asleep last night, my son was playing news in the other room. So I nodded off with vague thoughts about the wall in the back of my mind. I started thinking that what we needed to do was seed the desert with Legos ™ so that the pain of stepping on them in the dark would act as a deterrent. But then I thought, that only works if you don’t have shoes on. So I imagined a six foot wide strip of tar, to catch people’s shoes, so that the Legos could deter. I began to think about possible problems with the tar, but about then I fell asleep. Pity. I’m sure that if I had only dozed for a little more I could have solved the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/91 "2017-05-22T16:09:06Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I actually did answer the question - what’s already there at the border is exactly perfect, even if it’s a rusting old three-foot chain-link fence that only serves to leak rust into the nearest city’s water table, because nothing else we could physically do at the border would be cost effective. > As you might have gathered from my comment about destroying the agriculture sector, I think spending money on such a task force would do more harm than good - the time and money would be better spent going after drug and gun smugglers. l. However, we do need some sort of wall to slow down the drug and gun smugglers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/92 "2017-05-22T16:10:07Z")
[QUOTE=TimeWinder;20220334 US Customs has been warning for years that immigration across the Canadian border poses a much larger threat to the US than immigration across the Mexican one, [/QUOTE] cite? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/93 "2017-05-22T16:14:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > However, we do need some sort of wall to slow down the drug and gun smugglers. 1. Drugs, guns and people will still arrive by air and sea. 2. They will still make it through any wall you build the same way they get across the border now-by bribery. How much are you going to pay those wallsitters-enough to refuse bribes? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/94 "2017-05-22T16:29:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Drugs, guns and people will still arrive by air and sea. > 2. They will still make it through any wall you build the same way they get across the border now-by bribery. How much are you going to pay those wallsitters-enough to refuse bribes? Sure. But this slows things down, makes it easier to catch them. Border Patrol are well paid and few have accepted bribes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/95 "2017-05-22T16:55:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Border Patrol are well paid and few have accepted bribes. It took two seconds to find these articles about Border patrol bribery: [NY Times: The Enemy Within](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/28/us/homeland-security-border-bribes.html?_r=0) [Center For Investigative Reorting: Crossing The Line](http://bordercorruption.apps.cironline.org/) [NBC San Diego report](http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Border-Patrol-Agents-Being-Offered-and-Accepting-More-Bribes-408576035.html) [New York Magazine: Corrupt U.S. Border Patrol Officers a Boon for Smugglers](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/12/nyt-corrupt-u-s-border-agents-a-boon-for-smugglers.html) If that’s not enough, I’ve got cites enough to fill a page. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/96 "2017-05-22T16:58:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It took two seconds to find these articles about Border patrol bribery: > [NY Times: The Enemy Within](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/28/us/homeland-security-border-bribes.html?_r=0) > [Center For Investigative Reorting: > Crossing The Line](http://bordercorruption.apps.cironline.org/) > [NBC San Diego report](http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Border-Patrol-Agents-Being-Offered-and-Accepting-More-Bribes-408576035.html) > [New York Magazine: Corrupt U.S. Border Patrol Officers a Boon for Smugglers](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/12/nyt-corrupt-u-s-border-agents-a-boon-for-smugglers.html) > > If that’s not enough, I’ve got cites enough to fill a page. From your first cite: \*Although Homeland Security employees who have been caught taking bribes represent less than 1 percent of the more than 250,000 people who work at the department - ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/97 "2017-05-22T17:06:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > From your first cite: \*Although Homeland Security employees who have been caught taking bribes represent less than 1 percent of the more than 250,000 people who work at the department > > - What percentage of the 250,000 are even in a position to take bribes? BTW, why did you quote only half the sentence? The full quote reads: > [@](#): > > Although Homeland Security employees who have been caught taking bribes represent less than 1 percent of the more than 250,000 people who work at the department, investigators say the bribes and small numbers of people arrested and charged with bribery obscure the impact corruption can have on border security and immigration enforcement. BTW, that’s only the 1% that have been caught. Either that 1% is doing enough damage that we need to worry about them…or the actual percentage of Border Patrol Officers taking bribes is much higher. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/98 "2017-05-23T12:47:09Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There is a great deal of opposition to the wall being built on the border, but I would like to ask what the alternative is, then: > > As I understand it, the border between the USA and Mexico has a varied number of features; in some places a metal fence, in some other places…nothing? Some signs? > > Do the folks who oppose the wall want just the status quo - some places fenced, some places not? > > What features should the border between the USA and Mexico \*ideally \*feature? (That is, within the US government’s power to install, not the Mexican government’s power.) Should there be a dotted line saying “This is the border?” There presumably needs to be something to delineate the boundary. Welcome signs? A fence, but not a big wall? Most people, even the hardcore leftists are against illegal immigration. It creates crimes, brings in illegal contraband ( drugs that poison our youth ) , and takes some jobs from USA citizens. The cost to support them is a burden in some states. It doesn’t have to be a wall for 1,000 miles. Here is how I picture it. 1 ) A high wall where people are mostly likely to cross. 2 ) A drone fleet to patrol the open areas. 3 ) A railroad based system for mobile bases that can deploy cars or trucks when needed. 4 ) Use of satellite imagery to detect tunnels. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/99 "2017-05-23T13:54:30Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > The duckies are cool. > > As I was falling asleep last night, my son was playing news in the other room. So I nodded off with vague thoughts about the wall in the back of my mind. I started thinking that what we needed to do was seed the desert with Legos ™ so that the pain of stepping on them in the dark would act as a deterrent. But then I thought, that only works if you don’t have shoes on. So I imagined a six foot wide strip of tar, to catch people’s shoes, so that the Legos could deter. > > I began to think about possible problems with the tar, but about then I fell asleep. Pity. I’m sure that if I had only dozed for a little more I could have solved the whole thing. Best and most economical idea yet. They could use American tar too. Are Legos made in America? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2017, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/100 "2017-05-23T14:14:36Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > The duckies are cool. > > As I was falling asleep last night, my son was playing news in the other room. So I nodded off with vague thoughts about the wall in the back of my mind. I started thinking that what we needed to do was seed the desert with Legos ™ so that the pain of stepping on them in the dark would act as a deterrent. But then I thought, that only works if you don’t have shoes on. So I imagined a six foot wide strip of tar, to catch people’s shoes, so that the Legos could deter. > > I began to think about possible problems with the tar, but about then I fell asleep. Pity. I’m sure that if I had only dozed for a little more I could have solved the whole thing. `"Cactus Curtain" is a term describing the line separating the naval base from Cuban-controlled territory. After the Cuban Revolution, some Cubans sought refuge on the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base. In the fall of 1961, Cuban troops planted an 8-mile (13 km) barrier of *Opuntia* cactus along the northeastern section of the 17-mile (27 km) fence surrounding the base to stop Cubans from escaping Cuba to take refuge in the United States.` - Wikipedia > [@Biffster](#): > > Best and most economical idea yet. They could use American tar too. Are Legos made in America? I wish I could say they are made in Mexico … but I can’t … I think they’re made in Denmark … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937.md?page=6)