# If not a wall, what should there be at the border? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 18, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937 "2017-05-18T17:14:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/121 "2017-05-24T04:43:03Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > In other cases, if illegals were thrown out of manual labor type of jobs, the demand for the jobs they had, and the pay for them would increase attracting some USA citizens to those jobs. Employment would surely go down. How much is debatable, but it would go down. Would it go down enough to offset the rise in unemployment resulting from millions of consumers leaving the market? I don’t know how many there are, but there are definitely Americans out there whose wages are supported by illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/122 "2017-05-24T15:29:13Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Common sense. If you raise wages, many employers would have to increase costs to stay competitive. Higher costs are then passed along to the customer to offset the increase of owner/employer out of pocket costs. > > As an [example](http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2017/01/06/shake-shack-raises-burger-prices-in-order-to-increase-worker-wages.html). So are you against raising the minimum wage? There are enough able-bodied Americans who would like part-time or full-time work to replace the manual labor type of jobs illegals typically occupy. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/123 "2017-05-24T15:34:30Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think your implicit assumption is less people = more jobs. > > It doesn’t work like that. If illegals are mostly taking jobs that americans don’t want to do, and only a minority are competing with the native population, then the net effect will almost certainly be to _create_ jobs for the native population. > > Why? Because filling those niches is economic activity that will indirectly create jobs. Plus those immigrants need to buy things to survive in the US and contribute that way. Finally of course they tend to skew younger, which is also good for the economy. > > (I’ll come to the topic of illegal immigrants and crime later. I asked the question because I know most analyses say they are _less_ likely to commit crime. But I only have a minute spare to post right now, not enough time to put together some links.) Not at all. The amount of jobs stays the same. How many USA citizens are out of the labor force? In June 2016, A record **94,708,000** Americans were not in the labor force. Granted some are too old, but many are able bodied to work. Illegals maybe have 10,000,000 jobs, so its plausible almost all of the jobs illegals have would be share shifted. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/124 "2017-05-24T15:52:32Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Not at all. The amount of jobs stays the same. How many USA citizens are out of the labor force? > > In June 2016, A record **94,708,000** Americans were not in the labor force. Granted some are too old, but many are able bodied to work. > > Illegals maybe have 10,000,000 jobs, so its plausible almost all of the jobs illegals have would be share shifted. I can’t get why you think you can make any assertions based on two random numbers like that. I mean “maybe” they have 10M jobs? “Granted” your first number doesn’t accurately reflect the number of job seekers? Anyway here’s some numbers from [Pew Research](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/) > [@](#): > > The U.S. civilian workforce includes 8 million unauthorized immigrants, accounting for 5% of those who were working or were unemployed and looking for work, ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/125 "2017-05-24T16:03:35Z")
Nevermind. Made the same point Silver Lining did in post #122 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/126 "2017-05-24T16:07:27Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > There are enough able-bodied Americans who would like part-time or full-time work to replace the manual labor type of jobs illegals typically occupy. There are enuf but they simply wont do them. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-11-09/why-americans-wont-do-dirty-jobs](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-11-09/why-americans-wont-do-dirty-jobs) > **[Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don't want the job](https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/)** > > Trump's immigration crackdown is supposed to help U.S. citizens. For California farmers, it's worsening a desperate labor shortage. Not even for $16/hr. \*Some farmers are even giving laborers benefits normally reserved for white-collar professionals, like 401(k) plans, health insurance, subsidized housing and profit-sharing bonuses. Full-timers at Silverado Farming, for example, get most of those sweeteners, plus 10 paid vacation days, eight paid holidays, and can earn their hourly rate to take English classes. But the raises and new perks have not tempted native-born Americans to leave their day jobs for the fields. Nine in 10 agriculture workers in California are still foreign born, and more than half are undocumented, according to a federal survey.\* ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/127 "2017-05-24T17:15:43Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > So are you against raising the minimum wage? > > There are enough able-bodied Americans who would like part-time or full-time work to replace the manual labor type of jobs illegals typically occupy. My position on minimum wage is that it’s too nuanced for me to give a blanket answer. I am all in favor of everyone being paid a wage sufficient enough to live on. But I also know absolutely _nothing_ about the economics and politics involved in such a viewpoint being feasible, so I’m reluctant to commit to more than just an abstract, ignorant opinion. I hope that helps. Knowing me, though, I’m sure it didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/128 "2017-05-24T17:57:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What have we got between the U.S. and Canada? The forest border looks like this: [![](https://i.imgur.com/jcmEmlL.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/jcmEmlL.jpg) [![](https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/B264/production/_92386654_gettyimages-57169787.jpg) ](https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/B264/production/_92386654_gettyimages-57169787.jpg) [![](https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL2IwMzEyY2YyOGI3YTE3ZWY5OF80NzczMjQ4NTM0XzFmNWRlNDE4Y2Ffby5qcGciXSxbInAiLCJ0aHVtYiIsIngzOTA-Il0sWyJwIiwiY29udmVydCIsIi1xdWFsaXR5IDkxIC1hdXRvLW9yaWVudCJdXQ/4773248534_1f5de418ca_o.jpg) ](https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL2IwMzEyY2YyOGI3YTE3ZWY5OF80NzczMjQ4NTM0XzFmNWRlNDE4Y2Ffby5qcGciXSxbInAiLCJ0aHVtYiIsIngzOTA-Il0sWyJwIiwiY29udmVydCIsIi1xdWFsaXR5IDkxIC1hdXRvLW9yaWVudCJdXQ/4773248534_1f5de418ca_o.jpg) [![](https://media1.fdncms.com/sevendaysvt/imager/why-is-there-a-slash-in-the-trees-at-the/u/big/2269652/wtf-js-slash110613.jpg) ](https://media1.fdncms.com/sevendaysvt/imager/why-is-there-a-slash-in-the-trees-at-the/u/big/2269652/wtf-js-slash110613.jpg) With occasional markers like this: [![](https://i.imgur.com/jiTQz.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/jiTQz.jpg) In populated areas it looks like this: [http://www.washingtonstarnews.com/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/US%20canada%20border%204.jpg](http://www.washingtonstarnews.com/wp-content/uploads/photo-gallery/US%20canada%20border%204.jpg) [http://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL2ZiOTVmNzMyNmMyODRmNTEzNl9IYXNrZWxsX0ZyZWVfTGlicmFyeV9hbmRfT3BlcmFfSG91c2UxLmpwZyJdLFsicCIsInRodW1iIiwieDM5MD4iXSxbInAiLCJjb252ZXJ0IiwiLXF1YWxpdHkgOTEgLWF1dG8tb3JpZW50Il1d](http://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvcGxhY2VfaW1hZ2VzL2ZiOTVmNzMyNmMyODRmNTEzNl9IYXNrZWxsX0ZyZWVfTGlicmFyeV9hbmRfT3BlcmFfSG91c2UxLmpwZyJdLFsicCIsInRodW1iIiwieDM5MD4iXSxbInAiLCJjb252ZXJ0IiwiLXF1YWxpdHkgOTEgLWF1dG8tb3JpZW50Il1d) ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/129 "2017-05-25T19:55:27Z")
**If not a wall, what should there be at the border?** A line of fan dancers. (Sorry, it’s been an odd day.) ---
**Author:** ![SigMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@SigMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SigMan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/130 "2017-05-27T04:43:59Z")
Dam up both ends of the Rio Grande river. Drain it. Turn it into a mine field. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/131 "2017-05-27T08:19:12Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I wish I could say they are made in Mexico … but I can’t … I think they’re made in Denmark … I think the manufacturer who makes Lego for North America is in Mexico, actually. I haven’t dug that deep into it, but it looks like Lego moved their North America production out of the USA ten years ago? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/132 "2017-05-27T17:12:05Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > What? you mean the one from World War Z? World War Z-1, or the upcoming World War Z-2? … they will be back … ===== **Migrant Labor** No one has brought this up yet so perhaps undocumented Mexicans aren’t a big part of this labor force … this is based on what I observed when I lived in the California Central Valley … let’s start with the typical cherry orchard operation, the farmer and his family can handle all the work involved except harvest, they have to hire 37 people to come in for two weeks and pick the fruit, but that’s not enough for these workers to survive the other 50 weeks a year … so these worker move on and pick cucumbers for a month, then over to peaches, almonds, lettuce, etc etc etc … then as Fall sets in they head back to their permanent homes in Mexico … and return the following Spring to run the loop again … This system is basically set in stone … the productivity of California agriculture has been formed with migrant labor … reducing this labor force will have severe consequences to the food supply of the United States … I understand with the higher prices for California produce people will buy other foods … but which other foods, all the animal fodder they grow in the Midwest? … we can have Iowa farmers start growing food for human consumption but then we’ll need migrant labor in Iowa … [sigh] … If you’re expecting Anglo-Americans to rush in and take those jobs and live that lifestyle … they already would have … but it’s just too damn expensive to over-winter in the USA compared to over-wintering in Mexico … it’s not that white people won’t do the work, white people won’t live the lifestyle of moving place-to-place every few weeks, living in tents, cooking on open fires, teaching their own children how to read and write … (Although a diet of field corn and soybeans would be healthier …) ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/133 "2017-07-14T00:02:12Z")
How about what there is already? [https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170714/eb88b338c18b16c0688bbc9a5f7151b2.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170714/eb88b338c18b16c0688bbc9a5f7151b2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/134 "2017-07-14T00:13:05Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > How about what there is already? > > [https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170714/eb88b338c18b16c0688bbc9a5f7151b2.jpg](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170714/eb88b338c18b16c0688bbc9a5f7151b2.jpg) It needs to be 10 feet taller. And beautiful. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/135 "2017-07-14T00:18:15Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Remove incentives to work and the feasibility of working illegally in the US. Yeah. Either that, or a welcome mat that says something like “Give us your tired, your poor…” I have my grandfather’s naturalization certificate framed and hanging on my wall. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/136 "2017-07-14T00:37:05Z")
Might as well just drop this here… Gotta be able to see through it at spots, because otherwise somebody might throw a sixty pound bag of drug over the wall and it might land on somebody. I swear, I am _not_ making this up! So, transparency. (With my luck, be walking along and somebody throws over a sack of automatic weapons and ammo. Better than meth, I guess.) ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/137 "2017-07-14T04:49:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It needs to be 10 feet taller. And beautiful. With ads. And solar powered apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/138 "2017-07-16T11:33:25Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There is a great deal of opposition to the wall being built on the border, but I would like to ask what the alternative is, then: > > As I understand it, the border between the USA and Mexico has a varied number of features; in some places a metal fence, in some other places…nothing? Some signs? > > Do the folks who oppose the wall want just the status quo - some places fenced, some places not? > > What features should the border between the USA and Mexico \*ideally \*feature? (That is, within the US government’s power to install, not the Mexican government’s power.) Should there be a dotted line saying “This is the border?” There presumably needs to be something to delineate the boundary. Welcome signs? A fence, but not a big wall? People need to think outside the box. A high wall is needed in heavy traffic areas. In other more remote parts of the desert, perhaps a fence, but behind the fence, how about a railroad like a base for border patrols to travel ( and launch their cars ), and a fleet of drones to locate those trying to cross? For the kicker, satellite imagery to stop drug trafficking or human trafficking. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/139 "2017-07-16T11:37:28Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > 1. Do illegal immigrants commit crimes at a higher rate than the native population? > > 2. Yes, with a wall, the war on drugs will finally be won! Yay! > > 3. Here’s a bet: if N million illegals are thrown out of the US, the unemployment figures will not drop by N. Indeed I would say unemployment is more likely to \*increase \*as certain enterprises in the agricultural sector become uneconomic. > > I’m not saying this kind of exploitation is OK, but if we’re just talking “Jabs!”, no it’s not as simple as less people = more jobs. 1 )Yes, they do. And they are not supposed to be here. Do the elementary deduction. If they stop coming or are deported, crime goes down. 2 ) Who says just a wall? I want drone patrol and satellite imagery to detect tunnels, combined with a railroad for mobile bases. 3 ) I disagree with that, if illegals leave that are not counted for jobs, American Citizens will take some of them, lowering un-employment. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937/140 "2017-07-16T12:35:05Z")
Illegal immigrants are only more likely to commit crimes if you count the crime of them being here at all. Take that out of the counting, and they commit significantly less. And adding people to the economy doesn’t decrease the number of jobs available; it increases it. You work for a company that provides some product or service. People buy that product or service. If there are more people, then there are more people buying that product or service, and hence more job openings in your job. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-a-wall-what-should-there-be-at-the-border/786937.md?page=8)