# If not Bush, then who? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068 "2009-04-14T15:09:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/101 "2009-04-20T14:55:04Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Forget the manufactured connection between 9/11 and Iraq. This is a bit more basic than that. Nearly every American knew who Saddam was, knew where Iraq was, and knew we had been fighting a low grade war with them for over a decade…since we fought a high grade, if short war with them in 1991. I’m going to call bullshit on that right now. I bet no more than 25% knows where Iraq is _now_. > [@xtisme](#): > > Prior to the Korean War I doubt very many American’s could find Korea on a map, had no idea who was the president of Korea, and had no opinion about Korea one way or the other. So…invading Korea after being attacked by Japan is not a good analogy for invading Iraq after 9/11. In fact, it sucks. I’ll make a similar bet that at no point has knowledge of Korea’s location or ruler reached over 30% saturation. Americans don’t know shit about the world. Using our awareness as part of an argument against an analogy is both stupid and useless. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/102 "2009-04-20T15:47:21Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Forget the manufactured connection between 9/11 and Iraq. This is a bit more basic than that. Nearly every American knew who Saddam was, knew where Iraq was, and knew we had been fighting a low grade war with them for over a decade…since we fought a high grade, if short war with them in 1991. > > Prior to the Korean War I doubt very many American’s could find Korea on a map, had no idea who was the president of Korea, and had no opinion about Korea one way or the other. So…invading Korea after being attacked by Japan is not a good analogy for invading Iraq after 9/11. In fact, it sucks. > > Why continue to push these bad analogies? It doesn’t help. Instead, why not just say ‘Invading Iraq was a mistake that was fairly unique in American history’? > > -XT I agree that the analogies are not necessary. I also think you’re nitpicking the details of the analogies because you personally don’t like them. The point of them, however imperfect, is to show that a false connection was made, along with other lies, and we attacked a country that had not attacked us. Most analogies are not intended to be perfectly aligned but make a larger point. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/103 "2009-04-20T22:07:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Now from that date forward it is hard to find things that Bush did an good job on. But in 2004 I was almost afraid to vote. I knew what bush was and I remembered Carry from the 70’s. Just to be clear, are you talking about John Kerry’s anti-war protesting or Hugh Carey’s term of office as New York’s governor? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/104 "2009-04-20T22:21:23Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Carrot] I’m going to call bullshit on that right now. I bet no more than 25% knows where Iraq is now. [/QUOTE] :dubious: You bet that no more than 25% of American’s know we have troops in Iraq?? And you are serious?? > [@](#): > > I’ll make a similar bet that at no point has knowledge of Korea’s location or ruler reached over 30% saturation. > Americans don’t know shit about the world. Using our awareness as part of an argument against an analogy is both stupid and useless. Horseshit. The analogy doesn’t work…period. And part of why it doesn’t work is because no American’s knew or cared about Korea prior to the bombing of Pearl Harbor by Japan. Whereas (despite your hopefully whimsical and tongue in cheek assertion) a large percentage of American’s knew Saddam and were aware of our history of conflict with Iraq going back over a decade prior to our invasion there. They had been prep’ed for animus towards Iraq, had seen Saddam demonized by politicians and media both for over a decade. Invasion of Korea would have been not only out of left field but pretty much out of the universe. Invasion of Iraq, while stupid, was not a complete surprise…in fact the ground work had been done for literally years ahead of time. An attempt to invade Korea would have basically had the American people and the Congress going ‘huh?’…whereas in back in the real world an invasion of Iraq had a large percentage of the population (as well as the House and Senate) fired up, or at least acquiescent. Seriously, what’s the point of trying to make these stupid analogies fly? Why does invading Iraq have to be like the US invading Korea or Brazil or some other totally off the wall nation? It’s the equivalent of trying to justify the war with tales of WMD still hidden out in the desert…the assertion is so ridiculous and over the top that it derails the discussion and makes dismissal easy. -XT ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/105 "2009-04-20T22:36:01Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > :dubious: You bet that no more than 25% of American’s know we have troops in Iraq?? And you are serious?? > > -XT Um , not what he said really, or didn’t you notice? He may be mistaken but at least get what he said right. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/106 "2009-04-20T23:14:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > :dubious: You bet that no more than 25% of American’s know we have troops in Iraq?? And you are serious?? > -XT So am I to understand that you believe that 95% of Americans can actually recite the entire text of the Iraq constitution by heart? I’ll take you up on that bet! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/107 "2009-04-20T23:35:35Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Um , not what he said really, or didn’t you notice? [/QUOTE] You are right…he said don’t know where Iraq is. So…I misunderstood his misunderstanding of my original point. For my part I’ll apologize though…I DID misunderhear what he was saying. He’s still wrong…more than 25% of American’s know where Iraq is by this point. [QUOTE=Euphonious Polemic] So am I to understand that you believe that 95% of Americans can actually recite the entire text of the Iraq constitution by heart? I’ll take you up on that bet! [/QUOTE] Um…to be sure. Whatever you say chief… -XT ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/108 "2009-04-20T23:55:35Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So am I to understand that you believe that 95% of Americans can actually recite the entire text of the Iraq constitution by heart? I’ll take you up on that bet! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/109 "2009-04-20T23:58:45Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You are right…he said don’t know where Iraq is. So…I misunderstood his misunderstanding of my original point. For my part I’ll apologize though…I DID misunderhear what he was saying. > > He’s still wrong…more than 25% of American’s know where Iraq is by this point. > > -XT I’m sure more than 25% would say, the Middle East, but beyond that I wouldn’t be to sure. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/110 "2009-04-21T00:09:52Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] I’m sure more than 25% would say, the Middle East, but beyond that I wouldn’t be to sure. [/QUOTE] Let’s be reasonable here…people have been seeing maps of Iraq, news about Iraq, video from Iraq, etc etc for over 19 years! I don’t care how stupid you think American’s are, it’s unreasonable to think that after all this time it hasn’t been ingrained into their brains by now. Even assuming for a moment though that American’s really are as stupid as this would indicate though, the Korea analogy STILL makes no sense and doesn’t work. America had no history with Korea, American’s had pretty much zero exposure to Korea, American news hadn’t focused on Korea or Korea’s leaders (hell, I’m fairly well educated and I have no idea who WAS running Korea prior to WWII…I only have a general idea of what kind of government they had then and only the vaguest idea of Korea on the world stage at that time). There would have been approximately zero motivation for Roosevelt to invade Korea, and less than zero motivation for the House and Senate to approve such an invasion…and somewhere around a snowballs chance in hell the American people would have supported such an invasion at that time. Heck, it took the bombing of Pearl Harbor to get us off the neutrality dime in the first frigging place! It’s…a…bad…analogy. And it’s a silly and stupid analogy that has no bearing on the US invasion of Iraq and instead distracts from the discussion. As I said earlier, a better analogy (though still flawed) would have been Japan attacks the US and the US invades Germany…since most American’s DID know who Hitler was at the time, HAD seen Germany in the news, HAD seen American propaganda begin to be directed against Germany, and of course Roosevelt was really trying to maneuver the US into war with Germany all along (very similar to Bush trying to maneuver the US into war with Iraq). Of course, why an analogy is needed at all is beyond me. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/111 "2009-04-21T00:24:12Z")
[After more than three years of combat and nearly 2,400 U.S. military deaths in Iraq, nearly two-thirds of Americans aged 18 to 24 still cannot find Iraq on a map.](http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/05/02/geog.test/) I seriously doubt that this figure has improved in the 3 years since this study was done, since Iraq is out of the news cycle these days. I also doubt that it would markedly improve much if you included those over 24. If anyone has any better cite, have at 'er. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/112 "2009-04-21T00:31:20Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Let’s be reasonable here…people have been seeing maps of Iraq, news about Iraq, video from Iraq, etc etc for over 19 years! I don’t care how stupid you think American’s are, it’s unreasonable to think that after all this time it hasn’t been ingrained into their brains by now. > [@](#): > > As far as you know, does the earth revolve around the sun, or does the sun revolve around the earth? > Earth revolves around the sun 79% > Sun revolves around the earth 18 > No opinion 3 100% > **[New Poll Gauges Americans' General Knowledge Levels](https://news.gallup.com/poll/3742/New-Poll-Gauges-Americans-General-Knowledge-Levels.aspx)** > > Thanks to the Internet and other trappings of the Information Age, facts and figures now come cheaper and faster than ever before. But where does that leave good, old-fashioned general knowledge, the kind people carry around in their heads? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/113 "2009-04-21T01:25:37Z")
And this all ‘proves’ what, exactly? Does it make the analogy work some how? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/114 "2009-04-21T01:30:36Z")
People are not only dumber than you imagine, they are dumber than you _can_ imagine. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/115 "2009-04-21T01:44:24Z")
I don’t believe it’s possible to be that dumb…not after years of being bombarded with Iraq news. Hell I could probably find Iraq if I was blind folded in a snow storm and had to read the map in brail. And it’s beside the point. If somehow people really are that stupid it matters not…the analogy still doesn’t work. Ah well…I think this dead horse has been lead to midstream and beaten to death…no debate here. Carry on… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/116 "2009-04-21T01:47:45Z")
Most Americans can’t even find their own state on a map. A depressing number don’t know what continent they live on. Americans are shockingly ignorant of geography. I’d be willing to bet that 25% of the Americans currently IN Iraq still couldn’t find it on a globe. I think Miss Teen South Carolina was actually onto something underneath all her babble when she said that “US Americans” are probably so geographically ignorant because they don’t own maps or globes anymore, and never look at them (other than googlemaps). ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/117 "2009-04-21T03:14:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Let’s be reasonable here…people have been seeing maps of Iraq, news about Iraq, video from Iraq, etc etc for over 19 years! I don’t care how stupid you think American’s are, it’s unreasonable to think that after all this time it hasn’t been ingrained into their brains by now. Let’s talk about being reasonable. Do you really think that video _from_ Iraq informs people about where Iraq is geographically? So if we see video of people running down a Baghdad street that tells people where Irag and Baghdad are located on the globe? I don’t call that a reasonable assumption. News agencies showing a map of Iraq and the major cities is more informative but it doesn’t necessarily help people learn where Iraq is in relation to other countries and the world in general. Then you’d have to consider how many people are paying attention and trying to retain that type of information. Add to that that 19 years is an exaggeration IMO. Desert Storm lasted less than a year and ended in Feb of 91. We’ve hardly been bombarded with news about Iraq between early 91 and 2002 when Bush began rattling his saber. > [@](#): > > Even assuming for a moment though that American’s really are as stupid as this would indicate though, the Korea analogy STILL makes no sense and doesn’t work. America had no history with Korea, American’s had pretty much zero exposure to Korea, American news hadn’t focused on Korea or Korea’s leaders (hell, I’m fairly well educated and I have no idea who WAS running Korea prior to WWII…I only have a general idea of what kind of government they had then and only the vaguest idea of Korea on the world stage at that time). There would have been approximately zero motivation for Roosevelt to invade Korea, and less than zero motivation for the House and Senate to approve such an invasion…and somewhere around a snowballs chance in hell the American people would have supported such an invasion at that time. Heck, it took the bombing of Pearl Harbor to get us off the neutrality dime in the first frigging place! > > It’s…a…bad…analogy. And it’s a silly and stupid analogy that has no bearing on the US invasion of Iraq and instead distracts from the discussion. As I said earlier, a better analogy (though still flawed) would have been Japan attacks the US and the US invades Germany…since most American’s DID know who Hitler was at the time, HAD seen Germany in the news, HAD seen American propaganda begin to be directed against Germany, and of course Roosevelt was really trying to maneuver the US into war with Germany all along (very similar to Bush trying to maneuver the US into war with Iraq). > > Of course, why an analogy is needed at all is beyond me. > > -XT I get it that you don’t like the analogy. It doesn’t matter. I don’t need one. I still happen to think you are needlessly nitpicking details to find fault with it. Whether Americans knew where Korea or Iraq was seems nearly irrelevant to the point the analogy is making, but you go ahead and think whatever you like. It really doesn’t matter and doesn’t deserve any more bandwidth. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/118 "2009-04-21T03:30:17Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Do you really think that video from Iraq informs people about where Iraq is geographically? [/QUOTE] You mean along with the little map thingies they put on just about every news cast I’ve ever seen during the story? Yeah…I think it does. > [@](#): > > So if we see video of people running down a Baghdad street that tells people where Irag and Baghdad are located on the globe? I don’t call that a reasonable assumption. Well, it is for anyone who has, you know, actually watched the news. Ironically I’m watching a news cast right now that has a story on Iraq and lo! It has a MAP…right there on the screen! Imagine that… > [@](#): > > Add to that that 19 years is an exaggeration IMO. Of exaggerations…of maps? Of geography? Did the evil old administration (including Clinton since we are going back 19 years) distorted…maps? The rat bastards! Yes, I see… > [@](#): > > We’ve hardly been bombarded with news about Iraq between early 91 and 2002 when Bush began rattling his saber. You don’t recall ever hearing about Iraq or that Saddam guy through the entire Clinton regime? I seem to recall one or two stories at least… Which is one or two more stories than I’m guessing American’s heard about the evil Koreans during the Great Depression. > [@](#): > > I get it that you don’t like the analogy. It doesn’t matter. I don’t need one. I still happen to think you are needlessly nitpicking details to find fault with it. Whether Americans knew where Korea or Iraq was seems nearly irrelevant to the point the analogy is making, but you go ahead and think whatever you like. It really doesn’t matter and doesn’t deserve any more bandwidth. Just because the analogy bears zero relevance? Yeah, just nitpicking. Of course, you COULD explain why you think there are any similarities (besides the obvious ones where Iraqi’s are humans and Koreans are humans too of course). You do know what the word ‘analogy’ means, right? The whole ‘similarity’ thingy, ehe? So…what’s similar between our actual invasion of Iraq and this theoretical invasion of Korea in response to a bombing by Japan? Iraq and Korea both have the letters ‘a’ and ‘r’ in them…Koreans and Iraqi’s are both humans…there are dogs in both countries…people in both countries eat food and have sex… … … Um…what else? -XT ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/119 "2009-04-21T05:06:42Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You mean along with the little map thingies they put on just about every news cast I’ve ever seen during the story? Yeah…I think it does. So it’s the _maps_ and not the video. I guess you’re agreeing I’m correct. Ya see, [here’s a CNN report](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PlgPAGR43E)with plenty of video from Iraq with no map. [Here’s another](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIvJxM5SL3k&feature=related) with plenty of video from Iraq but no maps. [Another](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgNInWQI-qU&feature=related) [Another](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6RB9N-Ddk4) [Another](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j8qaYEnbPY) [Here’s another](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7UJbkIwVA4&feature=related) this one is interesting because they’re making the comparison between the rhetoric concerning Iraq before we invaded and the rhetoric about Iran. No map of either place though. Just so ya know. These were the first ones I clicked on. I didn’t have to sift through a lot of videos of news reports to find some with no maps. All of the ones I clicked on had no maps. I’m sure some do but that puts serious doubt pn you "just about every news cast doesn’t it? Unless you’re counting the map showing the outline of Iraq. That hardly tells anyone where it is does it? > [@](#): > > Well, it is for anyone who has, you know, actually watched the news. Ironically I’m watching a news cast right now that has a story on Iraq and lo! It has a MAP…right there on the screen! Imagine that… Yeah, is that the Iraq outline map? We are talking about people knowing where Iraq is in relation to world and regional geography. That map doesn’t help. > [@](#): > > Of exaggerations…of maps? Of geography? Did the evil old administration (including Clinton since we are going back 19 years) distorted…maps? The rat bastards! Yes, I see… Never said anything like this. Doesn’t help your argument. The exaggeration is your indication that Iraq has been in the news and educating people about it’s geography for 19 years. > [@](#): > > You don’t recall ever hearing about Iraq or that Saddam guy through the entire Clinton regime? I seem to recall one or two stories at least… Also not at all what I said. Try to stay relevant and not waste time by misrepresenting people’s arguments. > [@](#): > > Just because the analogy bears zero relevance? Yeah, just nitpicking. Of course, you COULD explain why you think there are any similarities (besides the obvious ones where Iraqi’s are humans and Koreans are humans too of course). You do know what the word ‘analogy’ means, right? The whole ‘similarity’ thingy, ehe? So…what’s similar between our actual invasion of Iraq and this theoretical invasion of Korea in response to a bombing by Japan? Iraq and Korea both have the letters ‘a’ and ‘r’ in them…Koreans and Iraqi’s are both humans…there are dogs in both countries…people in both countries eat food and have sex… … … > > Um…what else? > > -XT As I said, I don’t care about your feelings about the analogy or that you don’t seem to understand how analogies work. I’ve already explained and you obviously missed it. It doesn’t matter. Keep your irrelevant sarcasm to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/120 "2009-04-21T07:19:36Z")
Korea was a colony of Japan before and during WWII. I can’t believe no one has mentioned that. Comparing invading Korea to invading Iraq is like comparing DDay to Iraq because France never attacked us, so obviously invading there was a misdirection. Korea was directly controlled by Japan, and had been for years. Even if attacking it did not make strategic sense (like it did for the Soviets, perhaps) it would have been much more justifiable than Iraq. I think a better analogy would be that invading Iraq 18 months after 9/11 is like invading Spain 18 months after Pearl Harbor. You have the iconic, disliked leader in Franco, the fascist political ideology that seemed to place him in close ties with the Axis powers, the donating of troops to the Russian front on the Axis side on the down low, the recent conflict that involved a world coalition and a lot of Americans that gave it a lot of press, the put-down local minorities that might be persuaded to rise up, and so on and so on. It would have been really stupid (we had a thread discussing it a while back) like Iraq, also. Obviously, there is a lot wrong with that analogy, (like, Hitler and Mussolini being right there) but it is certainly better than Korea, or Brazil, for that matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068.md?page=7)