# If not Bush, then who? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 14, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068 "2009-04-14T15:09:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/121 "2009-04-21T12:59:07Z")
> [@nani](#): > > Korea was a colony of Japan before and during WWII. I can’t believe no one has mentioned that. Comparing invading Korea to invading Iraq is like comparing DDay to Iraq because France never attacked us, so obviously invading there was a misdirection. Korea was directly controlled by Japan, and had been for years. Even if attacking it did not make strategic sense (like it did for the Soviets, perhaps) it would have been much more justifiable than Iraq. > > I think a better analogy would be that invading Iraq 18 months after 9/11 is like invading Spain 18 months after Pearl Harbor. You have the iconic, disliked leader in Franco, the fascist political ideology that seemed to place him in close ties with the Axis powers, the donating of troops to the Russian front on the Axis side on the down low, the recent conflict that involved a world coalition and a lot of Americans that gave it a lot of press, the put-down local minorities that might be persuaded to rise up, and so on and so on. It would have been really stupid (we had a thread discussing it a while back) like Iraq, also. > > Obviously, there is a lot wrong with that analogy, (like, Hitler and Mussolini being right there) but it is certainly better than Korea, or Brazil, for that matter. How well an analogy does or doesn’t work depends on the point the analogy is trying to make. The point of using Brazil or Korea is simply to indicate attacking a country that had not attacked us. Both work to that simple end. Looking at the details and finding more points of similarity or details that are dissimilar isn’t all that relevant in this case. Yes, Americans had some idea that Saddam was a bad guy and we’d had trouble with him before but IMO that isn’t really relevant to the point of Iraq not being involved in 9/11. Bush tried to make a case that Iraq was involved and didn’t have much to go on, so he switched to different lies. Shame on Congress and us for letting it happen. The Korea , Japan connection you mentioned is interesting. I used Korea because it’s in the same area and the people are different from US. Sadly, that’s how some people think and it’s used by leaders. “Those damed Arabs with their turbans and Islam over there all hate us and want to kill us” could have easily been “those damed heathen Asians with their slanty eyes and non Christian ways” if a president was so inclined. The fact that Korea was occupied by Japan would have given a president _more_ justification to invade them IMO. That’s a very real connection to an enemy that has attacked us. I do see your point that in some ways that real connection might be a point that is dissimilar but to the basic simple point of the analogy, it doesn’t matter. Aside from **xtisme** ’s petulant nonsense about the analogies I do agree they aren’t necessary. We know Bush and his regime were lying SOBs. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/122 "2009-04-21T14:08:41Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] Aside from xtisme’s petulant nonsense about the analogies I do agree they aren’t necessary. [/QUOTE] And yet you really gots nothing that even shows you understand what an analogy is…let alone how your idiotic analogy works. I’m militantly unsurprised… > [@](#): > > So it’s the maps and not the video. I guess you’re agreeing I’m correct. > Ya see, here’s a CNN report with plenty of video from Iraq with no map. Um…whatever you say chief. You found a couple of news reports sans maps and that proves…that some news reports don’t have them. If I find news reports that include maps of Iraq that will of course prove…that some do. > [@](#): > > Just so ya know. These were the first ones I clicked on. I didn’t have to sift through a lot of videos of news reports to find some with no maps. All of the ones I clicked on had no maps. I’m sure some do but that puts serious doubt pn you "just about every news cast doesn’t it? Unless you’re counting the map showing the outline of Iraq. That hardly tells anyone where it is does it? Actually, one of your links did have an inset picture of Iraq…but that’s not exactly what I was talking about. All of your stuff is fairly recent and all of it’s from Youtube (so could and probably was edited in order to make the download easier). I remember during the initial invasion of Iraq CNN used to show a graphic of the Middle East with an inset picture of Iraq, and then zoom in on it and highlight where key battles or actions were taking place. During the initial occupation they did something similar. From being at my dads house I remember Fox doing the same thing…and at a guess most of the other networks did so as well. After 6 years maybe they figured they could give it a rest now…though while I was watching last night I saw a news report on (I think) ABC where again they showed a graphic of Iraq inset into the Middle East. I know you spent a lot of time putting together your Youtube offensive…but you’ve really managed to show nothing much there. > [@](#): > > Yeah, is that the Iraq outline map? We are talking about people knowing where Iraq is in relation to world and regional geography. That map doesn’t help. It does if it shows Iraq in the context of the Middle East…at least I assume that people know where the Middle East is. To put this another way, if American’s don’t know where Iraq is after almost 2 decades of news concerning it, how much less would they have after being exposed to something approaching zero news or interest concerning Korea? Even if we assume that the 25% figure tossed around is accurate, do you feel that 25% of American’s knew or cared about Korea directly after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor? Did sufficient representatives from the House or Senate know or care enough to authorize an invasion after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor? > [@](#): > > Never said anything like this. Doesn’t help your argument. The exaggeration is your indication that Iraq has been in the news and educating people about it’s geography for 19 years. We were discussing maps…and you tossed this in. > [@](#): > > Add to that that 19 years is an exaggeration IMO. > [@](#): > > Of exaggerations…of maps? Of geography? Did the evil old administration (including Clinton since we are going back 19 years) distorted…maps? The rat bastards! Yes, I see… Since we were discussing maps and peoples understanding of geography I thought it was amusing you would toss in the old ‘Add to that that 19 years is an exaggeration IMO’. Oh, I knew you had digressed from the main point and had wandered back to railing against the exaggerations of the Bush administration, to be sure. It’s you after all. Still, even this does a lot to undercut your analogy. The Bush administration (and Clinton and Bush I, since we are talking about the 19 year time span) had 19 years of exaggerations toward Iraq to build on. Korea (or Brazil) on the other hand…well, that would be something approaching zero, since no one bothered exaggerating about them prior to the Korean war…about a decades after Pearl Harbor, ehe? > [@](#): > > Also not at all what I said. Try to stay relevant and not waste time by misrepresenting people’s arguments. This is what you said: > [@](#): > > We’ve hardly been bombarded with news about Iraq between early 91 and 2002 when Bush began rattling his saber. There was a constant stream of news concerning Saddam and Iraq throughout the 90’s, including clashes in the no-fly zone. You can take exception to ‘bombarded’ if you like…but the truth is that Iraq wasn’t exactly a news black hole during that period. So…I’m not misrepresenting your argument (weak as it is). > [@](#): > > As I said, I don’t care about your feelings about the analogy or that you don’t seem to understand how analogies work. I’ve already explained and you obviously missed it. It doesn’t matter. Keep your irrelevant sarcasm to yourself. Ah…irony, ehe? I don’t understand how analogies work because you can wave your hands around and focus on the maps and geography issue. I…see. And you already explained the similarities but I missed it. I’m sure it was a really killer explanation too…it’s a shame I missed it really as I have no doubts that it neatly tied together how invading Korea after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor is exactly like invading Iraq after 9/11. As for keeping my ‘irelevant sarcasm’ to myself…naw, that’s all part of the service. -XT ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/123 "2009-04-21T14:18:45Z")
**cosmosdan** and **xtisme** , take this hijack to the Pit before one of you, (at least), pulls down a Warning. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/124 "2009-04-21T14:49:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **cosmosdan** and **xtisme** , take this hijack to the Pit before one of you, (at least), pulls down a Warning. > > [/Moderating] OK **Tom** **xtisme** we don’t agree. That’s it. We’re done now. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/125 "2009-04-21T14:50:32Z")
Works for me…we don’t agree and it was a silly discussion. Done now. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068/126 "2009-04-22T04:48:42Z")
**Aburntiger11** , first a welcome to the SDMB and a **WAR EAGLE!** Part of being an emotionally intelligent adult is keeping yourself open to changing your mind. BTW, I’ve been bragging about how cool Alabama is. I love Huntsville and Montgomery. Don’t go making a liar out of me! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-bush-then-who/493068.md?page=6)