# If Not For Medicare, How Would Seniors Get Health Care? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 3, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529 "2010-02-03T15:46:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/61 "2010-02-04T19:06:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You want us all to act as though we’re one big family. > [@Broomstick](#): > > And why would that be so terrible? > > Let us say there is a plan for health care. EVERYONE pays into it. EVERYONE can claim the same benefits. It can NEVER be taken away due to an illness or pre-existing condition or job loss. > > There. We ALL pay into a giant box, we can ALL withdraw health care from it. Would that be so terrible? > > As a bonus, since we’d all be in the same system for life there really would be incentives to promote preventive care and treat problems early, when they are most likely to cost the least. Because everyone DOESN’T pay into it. If you can’t pay, you still get covered. Which means that those that can pay are covering those that can’t. I’m happy to pay for my kid, and my wife, who can’t pay. But I don’t see why I should pay for you. You pay for you. I’ll pay for me. We’re not part of the same family. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/62 "2010-02-04T19:08:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, an attractive thought. > > But the problem with such an approach is that it quickly transforms itself into an entitlement. That’s not a problem for me. Call it whatever you want. As I said, your opinion means nothing to me. > [@](#): > > “You don’t have a right to this, but you’re getting it to lower all our costs,” won’t last a generation before it is categorized along with all the other things that “of course” an “enlightened society” provides its members. Ours has lasted more than a generation, so you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/63 "2010-02-04T19:11:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because everyone DOESN’T pay into it. If you can’t pay, you still get covered. Which means that those that can pay are covering those that can’t. I’m happy to pay for my kid, and my wife, who can’t pay. But I don’t see why I should pay for you. You pay for you. I’ll pay for me. We’re not part of the same family. The logical end-point of this thinking is that if you show up at an emergency room in critical condition and you can’t afford to pay, then the emergency room should be allowed to turn you away. Do you support this? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/64 "2010-02-04T19:16:03Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > That’s not a problem for me. Call it whatever you want. As I said, your opinion means nothing to me. Fair enough. Of course, my vote is one of many, but it elects legislators. And I, personally, am somewhat politically active in real life, and am a member of my local political party, so I have at least as much voice, and arguably more voice, than every citizen. And hey, guess what? Most of the local citizens have rejected health care reform, and it looks pretty strongly like the legislatures as a whole are following suit. In fact, my state just made it illegal to require anyone to buy health insurance. This is more a political statement than an actual protection, because the federal government’s law, if enacted, would surely preempt the state law. But as a protest and a statement, it’s certainly something for my state’s congressman to notice. And apparently, they have. So if the end of this conversation is your simply dismissing my opinion, that’s fine. I’m quite happy with the way things are going. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/65 "2010-02-04T19:16:14Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > The logical end-point of this thinking is that if you show up at an emergency room in critical condition and you can’t afford to pay, then the emergency room should be allowed to turn you away. Do you support this? Some do. The rule is they have to stabilize you before they boot you out. But who defines stabilized? Then They charge you a fortune and come mercilessly after you for collection. You do not get free medical care. You get bankruptcy for a new symptom. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/66 "2010-02-04T19:19:21Z")
[http://www.wicuba.org/hospitals\_turn\_away\_ill.htm](http://www.wicuba.org/hospitals_turn_away_ill.htm) This is the fact. people that think the poor are given free health care at any hospital are just feeding themselves falsities to make themselves feel less cruel and cold. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/67 "2010-02-04T19:21:52Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Some do. The rule is they have to stabilize you before they boot you out. But who defines stabilized? Then They charge you a fortune and come mercilessly after you for collection. The government defines stabilized, and we’ve had this requirement long enough that there’s a pretty good definition of it. Yes, some emergency rooms will illegally kick people out who can’t afford to pay before stabilization, but that’s not my question. Right now, we have a rule which says the emergency room has to offer treatment regardless of ability to pay. Having that rule will by necessity require other people to pay for the treatment, since the ER will never be able to collect payment from some people. If you are opposed to other people paying for your treatment, then logically, you should be opposed to this rule. > [@](#): > > You do not get free medical care. You get bankruptcy for a new symptom. If you get medical care and then declare bankruptcy before paying, then you have gotten other people to pay for your medical care. Declaring bankruptcy doesn’t make the cost of the treatment go away–it shifts the cost of the treatment to other people. ETA: Yes, you’re last post makes it clear that some people who need treatment are being turned away. My question is whether you think ER’s should be allowed to do this, or should ER’s be required to treat critical people regardless of ability to pay. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/68 "2010-02-04T19:22:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So if the end of this conversation is your simply dismissing my opinion, that’s fine. I’m quite happy with the way things are going. So? As I’ve outlined, what you think is unimportant. Really, your happiness or the lack thereof is not a factor in deciding whether or not to implement effective health care. You seem to think people other than your wife and family owe you and your opinions some consideration. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/69 "2010-02-04T19:26:49Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > The logical end-point of this thinking is that if you show up at an emergency room in critical condition and you can’t afford to pay, then the emergency room should be allowed to turn you away. Do you support this? If the hospital and emergency room was a private business with no recourse for reimbursement from the govt, then yes, they should be allowed to turn them away. It is immoral to conscript the doctors and nurses on duty there for free labor even if it means saving someone’s life. The logical endpoint of your thinking is to walk into Pfizer’s corporate offices and demand pills or present myself at the MRI center demanding a body scan even if I have no money. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > You seem to think people other than your wife and family owe you and your opinions some consideration. > > Why? Seems pretty obvious. You want his money. You also (indirectly) want his endorsement (in terms of his voting power to pass the laws you desire.) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/70 "2010-02-04T19:27:45Z")
[Businessweek - Bloomberg](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_49/b4061001.htm) The poor pay a lot more for medical care. It is not unlike the rich getting much better mortgage and loan deals. The poor finance the rich. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/71 "2010-02-04T19:32:02Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > If the hospital and emergency room was a private business with no recourse for reimbursement from the govt, then yes, they should be allowed to turn them away. It is immoral to conscript the doctors and nurses on duty there for free labor even if it means saving someone’s life. Ok, fair enough. ETA: However, if the emergency room gets reimbursement from the government, then other people are going to be paying for treatment, which seems opposed to **Bricker’s** position. > [@](#): > > The logical endpoint of your thinking is to walk into Pfizer’s corporate offices and demand pills or present myself at the MRI center demanding a body scan even if I have no money. No, that’s not the logical end-point of my thinking. I asked a question, I didn’t present a position, so don’t dishonestly put words in my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/72 "2010-02-04T19:35:03Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Seems pretty obvious. You want his money. You also (indirectly) want his endorsement (in terms of his voting power to pass the laws you desire.) No, I don’t want his money. I’d argue (hypothetically, I’ve already got it) for UHC whether Bricker had been born or not. It’s not personal. Or even accurate. I don’t think I’ve petitioned anyone in this thread to send me money. But I don’t see why wanting his money, were that the case, would require me to care what he thinks anyway. I’m pretty sure I’m not one of his children and I’m damned sure I’m not his wife. That’s where he drew the line between who he cares about and who he doesn’t, and I respect it. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/73 "2010-02-04T19:40:11Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > No, I don’t want his money. I’d argue (hypothetically, I’ve already got it) for UHC whether Bricker had been born or not. It’s not personal. Or even accurate. I don’t think I’ve petitioned anyone in this thread to send me money. C’mon… can we not have a debate that incorporates a tiny sliver of metaphorical abstraction?! Okay okay okay, I concede you didn’t LITERALLY ask Bricker for money. I also don’t think 99% of the pro-UHC people petitioned others for money. Well damn… what the hell are we all arguing about if nobody is LITERALLY petitioning anybody for money? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/74 "2010-02-04T19:53:28Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > C’mon… can we not have a debate that incorporates a tiny sliver of metaphorical abstraction?! > > Okay okay okay, I concede you didn’t LITERALLY ask Bricker for money. I also don’t think 99% of the pro-UHC people petitioned others for money. Well damn… what the hell are we all arguing about if nobody is LITERALLY petitioning anybody for money? Ideology vs. Results. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/75 "2010-02-04T19:55:25Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > So? As I’ve outlined, what you think is unimportant. Really, your happiness or the lack thereof is not a factor in deciding whether or not to implement effective health care. You seem to think people other than your wife and family owe you and your opinions some consideration. > > Why? No reason. You don’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/76 "2010-02-04T20:30:38Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You’ve asked a very interesting and difficult question. Which I’m not going to answer exactly. :). But I’ll provide a start that I (or others) can build on later > > In a world where Medicare has never existed and where health insurance is not so intricately tied to employment (due to tax incentives), I could imagine companies offering lifetime combined health and life insurance. perhaps it would convert into only health insurance after 65. Ok, I’ll go ahead and envision this with you. I assume you’re talking about insurers providing lifetime medical coverage directly to individuals, rather than employers providing lifetime medical coverage to employees. So, under this scenario, it seems we have the following groups of individuals: 1. Individuals who can afford to self-insure, but opt to choose coverage. These individuals get their health care expenses covered under your plan. 2. Individuals who cannot afford to self-insure and so choose coverage. What happens if the insurer goes bankrupt? Is the insurer allowed to change coverage options after the policy has begun? Is the insured allowed to switch insurers mid-stream? 3. Individuals who cannot afford either to self-insure and cannot afford the insurance coverage. What happens to them? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/77 "2010-02-04T20:36:03Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We’re not talking about best care, we’re talking about care adequate to keep people alive. That doesn’t mean swanky private rooms., unless you think someone has proposed this. > > But you seem a bit unclear on the concept of insurance. If your insurance company will pay at most what you pay in, and often less, there is no reason in the world to get insurance. What if you pay in $5,000 a month, but have a $50,000 disease two months after starting? I would say that you’re the one who’s unclear about the concept of insurance. In what world does an insurance company pay out as much as you have paid in? Why would you think that I’m suggesting such a thing? Insurance leverages the amount of money that everyone has paid into a plan against the needs of everyone in that plan. You sign up for a better plan, you get more covered. But that amount isn’t equal to how much you have paid, it’s equal to how much everyone has paid in, up to the level at which the plan guarantees coverage. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/78 "2010-02-04T20:41:26Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You’ve asked a very interesting and difficult question. Which I’m not going to answer exactly. :). But I’ll provide a start that I (or others) can build on later > > In a world where Medicare has never existed and where health insurance is not so intricately tied to employment (due to tax incentives), I could imagine companies offering lifetime combined health and life insurance. perhaps it would convert into only health insurance after 65. Okay, but that’s not the question. We have the world as it is, and I’m proposing the conservative wet dream: eliminating medicare/medicaid. Just to apply some realism, let’s say they set to end it in 8 years, and will grandfather in people currently covered, and those that will turn 65 in the next 8 years. Medicare/medicaid make up 19% of the Federal budget, so you get that savings on your federal taxes. Do you think that saving 1/5th of what you pay in Federal taxes would be enough to pay for your retirement health care in 30 years? How will you, as a responsible conservative, plan for your retirement? Given the current cost of medical care for those over 65 is estimated at about $10,000 per person year. And that cost is projected to grow to $14,000 by 2015. Do you feel you can accurately predict what your medical expenses will be for the 20 or so years you’ll be retired? If the cost of that one guy’s treatment was over $600,000 now, what will it cost in 15-30 years? Do you think it will go up or go down? Do you think that as a conservative you’re immune to cancer, heart disease/stroke, diabetes, hip fracture? Do you factor these conditions into your retirement plan? And even if you plan to cover insanely high insurance premiums, what is your backup plan if you are ineligible for private insurance? If you think your company is going to provide retirement coverage, how much faith do you put in that? Do you plan for then to cut you off? Part of the reason I ask this is because as a Canadian the concept is [almost] beyond me. I plan for retirement based on what I think my costs will be at 65, and how long I think I’ll be retired. I’m pretty sure that the cost of my medical treatment between age 65 and death will be slightly higher than the taxes I pay into the system from now until retirement. I’m really not sure how someone would go about planning for medical care 30 years from now. Care to enlighten me? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/79 "2010-02-04T20:48:26Z")
True or false: “Regardless of the financial and lifestyle choices a person has made in his life, it is the obligation of society to prove him with necessary medical care.” ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529/80 "2010-02-04T20:53:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > True or false: > > “Regardless of the financial and lifestyle choices a person has made in his life, it is the obligation of society to prove him with necessary medical care.” So no interest in answer any of my questions? True or false: If Medicare wasn’t going to exist when you retired, your current retirement plan would not change. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-for-medicare-how-would-seniors-get-health-care/527529.md?page=5)