# If not the Green Line, then what line should be the Israel-Palestine border? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805 "2011-05-22T19:51:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/181 "2011-05-30T02:55:36Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Okay. So … What should be the border between Palestine and Israel? You sound like Obama. He repeated mantra about defining borders, but he hasn’t done anything. At all. Since he took office. Anywho. I said before that I think it will would fall close to the 67 border with the exceptions of J’Lem and the suburbs. There will be military outposts in the WB, especially near Jordan, and hopefully in coordination with Palestinian police (like they do now, but better). I imagine Jordan won’t object to such an agreement as they are tired of illegal Palestinian immigrants and their growing Palestinian population. And a land swap. It would look like a drunk person playing with an Etch a Sketch, but hey. It works. Sound familiar? It’s what Netanyahu has hinted, what Barak wanted, and has been the longstanding general consensus for over ten years (with the exception of Jerusalem as that’s continually tabled). Right of Return: None, but loosen up reunification laws Compensation: Infrastructure & aid. Treaties: Non-aggression & economic. Also: Ensure that Palestinians are being hired in the WB for construction jobs and such. but…Not sure the Palestinian people will accept any of that. The PLO is getting a lot further with Netanyahu than with Sharon (ironically). ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/182 "2011-05-30T02:58:40Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You mean, aside from the fact that they were already living there before there was a state of Israel? And leaving aside your fantasy that they have been killing indiscriminately, or that this was all part of some land grab?? Your entire rant here is completely fact free, IOW. Why engage in a discussion where it’s clear you KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT?? > > -XT I know a lot about it. They can claim the deserts of Egypt as their ancestral lands, which I’d be glad to give them a claim to. But they don’t, because they want to indiscriminately kill dark skinned people that their allies consider as undesirable. That’s why religion is a mental disorder. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/183 "2011-05-30T03:07:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Anyone we’re off-topic. Coming from the guy that suddenly started the derail on the Algerian war that’s rich. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sigh, I said France didn’t lose due to international pressure and you have yet to provide a shred of evidence to support this but instead have simply responded with insults, which you categorize as “snide remarks”. Ha ok, so when anyone comes up with his “personal interpretation” of history, one has to provide links. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This conversation began by you implying that France should have “told the world to fuck off” by Israeli standards, and I pointed out that France had, as Tom also pointed out, told the World to “fuck off” gave the world the finger when lectured on Algeria and eventually retreated because the Algerians beat them, not because the World wagged their finger at them. Ha, except when it’s you or tomndebb. What is this? Your fucking class? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Anyway, this conversation ignores the point the Palestinians do not have a remote chance of kicking the Jews out of Israel and into the sea, or across the Mediterranean the way the Algerians did that same to the Pied Noires(again apologies for any misspellings). Algerians, and Maghebis in general, didnt have a chance of kicking back the French for the whole of the XIXth century neither. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/184 "2011-05-30T03:41:45Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > I know a lot about it. > > They can claim the deserts of Egypt as their ancestral lands, which I’d be glad to give them a claim to. > > But they don’t, because they want to indiscriminately kill dark skinned people that their allies consider as undesirable. > > That’s why religion is a mental disorder. I am not sure why you are fixated on denigrating religion in every thread where you post, but trying to use that theme as an end run around my clear instructions to stop posting your inflammatory nonsense about Israel relying on religious beliefs to establish their nation or borders without some evidence is not acceptable. Your silly claim that they want to “kill dark skinned people” is also inflammatory nonsense. This is a Warning to stop trolling on the subject. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/185 "2011-05-30T04:01:18Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You sound like Obama. He repeated mantra about defining borders, but he hasn’t done anything. At all. Since he took office. Anywho. I take that as a compliment. I don’t see that Obama has any responsibility to do anything himself, except put pressure on both sides to draw a damn line and end it, and stop fucking distracting the rest of the world with petty local squabbles. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/186 "2011-05-30T04:07:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I take that as a compliment. I don’t see that Obama has any responsibility to do anything himself, except put pressure on both sides to draw a damn line and end it, and stop fucking distracting the rest of the world with petty local squabbles. So put pressure to make a bad situation worse and then not help? Meh. I loathe Obama’s doctrine. Rather surprised at myself, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/187 "2011-05-30T04:09:23Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > But they don’t, because they want to indiscriminately kill dark skinned people that their allies consider as undesirable. I hate to tell you but the Palestinians aren’t anymore “dark skinned” than the Israelis. With your attacks on religion(which makes little sense since the most extreme political party in Israel is militantly secular) and you’re trying to frame this as a “dark skinned” versus “light skinned” issue, you seem to be trying to force a complicated issue Middle Eastern square peg into a western round hole. You might as well claim that Rwanda occurred because the Hutus enjoyed killing “dark skinned people” and blame the Troubles in Ulster on the Pope. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/188 "2011-05-30T04:12:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not sure why you are fixated on denigrating religion in every thread where you post, but trying to use that theme as an end run around my clear instructions to stop posting your inflammatory nonsense about Israel relying on religious beliefs to establish their nation or borders without some evidence is not acceptable. > > Your silly claim that they want to “kill dark skinned people” is also inflammatory nonsense. > > This is a Warning to stop trolling on the subject. > > [/Moderating] I will stop commenting on the subject. It seems censorship is dependent on the opinions of a poster in this forum. No problem. I’m happy to comply. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/189 "2011-05-30T04:13:15Z")
There are more calls for protests at the 67 border on the anniversary of the war. Yikes. Glad I don’t live in East Jerusalem. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/190 "2011-05-30T12:35:14Z")
[**Donor Bread (Money) and Congressional Circuses**](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28202.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\*\*…Part II – The Circus (or Dancing for Dollars) > > Here is how one Israeli journalist, Gideon Levy of Haaretz, characterized Netanyahu’s speech before Congress, “It was an address…filled with lies on top of lies and illusions heaped on illusions. Only rarely is a foreign head of state invited to speak before Congress. It’s unlikely that any other has attempted to sell such a pile of propaganda and prevarication, such hypocrisy and sanctimony as Bejamin Netanyahu….” If you are going to do this sort of thing, transforming Congress into a circus, you really have to know your audience. > > Here are some of Levy’s comments on the speech, > > 1. “How can the Israeli prime minister dare to say that his country ‘fully supports the desire of the Arab peoples in our region to live freely’ (as long as they aren’t Palestinians)?” When the Arab popular protests started “he was…warning of the dangers of an extremist Islamic regime and rushing to build a fence along our border with Egypt.” > > 2. “How could he rain praise on Israeli democracy when his government has done more than its predecessors to deal [a] mortal blow to that democracy, to pass completely anti-democratic laws?” > > 3. “How dare he speak about freedom of worship in Jerusalem at a time when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been denied that freedom for years?” > > Levy observes that Netanyahu, is “the man who explicitly said he would do his level best to destroy the Oslo Accords.” And yet, “suddenly…he’s in favor of peace with the Palestinians.” That is indeed what Netanyahu asserted. The prime minister told Congress that, “I am willing to make painful compromises to achieve this historic peace…” This brought the Congress to its feet for one of those “sustained ovations.” But then came the qualifiers, which no politician in the audience seemed to find unreasonable. Nonetheless, they demonstrate conclusively that the prime minister is unwilling to compromise on just about everything the Palestinians want and need. > > a. No compromise on the Right of Return. “This means that the Palestinian refugee problem will be resolved outside the borders of Israel.” > > b. No compromise on Jerusalem. “Jerusalem must remain the united capital of Israel.” > > c. And here are a bunch of other non-negotiable demands: “a Palestinian state must be fully demilitarized….it is vital that Israel maintain a long-term military presence along the Jordan River….Israel will not negotiate with a Palestinian government backed by the Palestinian version of Al Qaeda [Hamas].” > > While the Congress seemed not to notice that these qualifiers are fatal ones, another Israeli journalist did. Ben Caspit writing in Maariv, tells us that “Netanyahu knows very well that the conditions that he set [in his speech] for a peace process are complete non-starter[s]. There is no Palestinian in the world who will accept them, there is no Arab state in the world that will support them.”\*\*\* Much more (sane) commentary at source. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/191 "2011-05-30T13:24:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m sorry but such a comment shows really gross insensitivity to the plight of actual refugees. The point was their choosing Palestine to move to, not Israel. Why the hell would they do that, unless it was with the conviction that the land they were moving to _was_ Israel? I do not understand why you think it matters where they came from originally, or why they left. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/192 "2011-05-30T13:31:54Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You’re placing the responsibility of the lives of Israelis\* and \*Palestinians on Netanyahu. That’s pretty ridiculous Question: Who’s in control of the land in question? With authority comes responsibility, wouldn’t you say? > [@](#): > > but since you seem to side with the PLO It is a shame that you cannot discuss the subject on anything other than a black/white, “Jews good, Arabs bad” basis, just as it is a shame that you resorted to the childish evasion of “Any questioning of the policies of the government currently in office in Israel is antisemitic”. > [@](#): > > I can’t really argue with you much further. That does appear to be the case. > [@](#): > > There’s nothing to say. There’s a lot to _listen_ to, though. Can you do that? > [@](#): > > You buy into the myth that a bunch of Jews arrived in Palestine and drove out these poor Arabs who were just minding their olive trees. Perhaps you can tell us your own version of how the “settlements” and the wall came into being, then. It ought to be a fascinating tale. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/193 "2011-05-30T13:45:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If “Ulster” means “the part of the WB Israel should keep,” where exactly is it? > [@Acsenray](#): > > Okay. So … What should be the border between Palestine and Israel? There won’t be an answer posted here by a settlement supporter / Netanyahu apologist. The honest answer, the Jordan River, can’t be acknowledged publicly. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > But more to the point, which countries have not had their borders set by wars? I’m not saying it has to be that way, but that is the normal way that it’s done, even if we like to think otherwise. Pretty much any whose borders were set during a period of colonization. But, closer to home, the US/Canada border, the US/Russia border, half of the US/Mexico border … really, I’m surprised at you. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Aside from its general incoherence, the point of this statement is still something that applies to only a tiny minority of Israelis. It is not so much “irrefutable” as irrelevant. Then perhaps you could offer us your own hypothesis as to what truly underlies the widespread support in Israel, including by the government, for establishing Jewish settlements in Palestine. There’s a “tiny minority” who are willing to publicly state it as a religious doctrine about which discussion is futile, sure, but how about the rest of them? And how can the settlements be “irrelevant” to a sincere peacemaking process? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/194 "2011-05-30T14:38:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Pretty much any whose borders were set during a period of colonization. But, closer to home, the US/Canada border, the US/Russia border, half of the US/Mexico border … really, I’m surprised at you. Heh. The US/Canadian border was most definitely originally established by war (as was, of course, the US/Mexico border, with the sole exception of the Gadsden Purchase). Much fiddling of the Canadian/US border was accomplished subsequently, under _threat_ of war or small-scale conflict (see for example the Aroostook War and the Oregon boundary dispute - anyone remember "“Fifty-Four Forty or Fight!”?). However, the basic border proper came about as a result of the Treaty of Paris following the US Revolution. > **[Treaty of Paris (1783)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_(1783))** > > The Treaty of Paris, signed in Paris by representatives of King George III of Great Britain and representatives of the United States on September 3, 1783, officially ended the War of American Independence and recognized the Thirteen Colonies, which had been part of colonial British America, to be free, sovereign and independent states. > The treaty set the boundaries between British North America, later called Canada, and the United States, on lines the British labeled as "exceedingly generous,"... Seems those ignorant of history are liable to see it repeated … and be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/195 "2011-05-30T14:48:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Then perhaps you could offer us your own hypothesis as to what truly underlies the widespread support in Israel, including by the government, for establishing Jewish settlements in Palestine. There’s a “tiny minority” who are willing to publicly state it as a religious doctrine about which discussion is futile, sure, but how about the rest of them? And how can the settlements be “irrelevant” to a sincere peacemaking process? You have responded to a specific statement with a broad brush misunderstanding, trying to drag me into a discussion in which I do not choose to engage. Naxos is fixated on the idea that the only reason that Israel exists is to promote some version of Judaism. This is not a fact and his persistent interjection of that comment is trolling. There are more than enough posters engaged in the real discussion and I am not expressing any opinion on the topic. You have enough other posters with whom to feud; leave me out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/196 "2011-05-30T15:22:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The point was their choosing Palestine to move to, not Israel. Why the hell would they do that, unless it was with the conviction that the land they were moving to _was_ Israel? I do not understand why you think it matters where they came from originally, or why they left. Who’s “they”? I think you and Citizen Pained are talking past each other. The “six million” she’s talking about are Israeli Jews, who either did choose to move to Israel, or are descendents of those who did, and many of whom are or are descended from refugees (like the Ashkenazi who came to Israel before, during, and and after the Holocaust, and the Mizrahi who were forced out of their countries after Israel was founded. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/197 "2011-05-30T15:26:57Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [**Donor Bread (Money) and Congressional Circuses**](http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28202.htm) > > Much more (sane) commentary at source. Gid Levy doesn’t like the Occupation and Ben Caspit doesn’t like Netenyahu. In other news, the sun rises in the east, and the Pope is Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/198 "2011-05-30T15:53:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But, closer to home, the US/Canada border… You’re right. It took two wars, not one to establish that border-- The American Revolution and the War of 1812. I’ll have to be more careful next time. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/199 "2011-05-30T15:58:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > In other news, the sun rises in the east, and the Pope is Catholic. Cite? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/200 "2011-05-30T16:09:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re right. It took two wars, not one to establish that border-- The American Revolution and the War of 1812. I’ll have to be more careful next time. Don’t forget the [Pig War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War). I’m only half kidding here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805.md?page=11)