# If not the Green Line, then what line should be the Israel-Palestine border? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805 "2011-05-22T19:51:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/201 "2011-05-30T16:12:00Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Don’t forget the [Pig War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War). I’m only half kidding here. That war was definitely not kosher. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/202 "2011-05-30T19:02:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re right. It took two wars, not one to establish that border-- The American Revolution and the War of 1812. I’ll have to be more careful next time. It took the Webster-Ashburton Treaty. You’ll have to be even more careful than you think. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/203 "2011-05-30T19:03:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Who’s “they”? The Jewish so-called “settlers” in Palestine. Who did you think? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/204 "2011-05-30T19:08:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You have responded to a specific statement with a broad brush misunderstanding, trying to drag me into a discussion in which I do not choose to engage. You already _did_, and I was responding to _you_. I was trying to drag you beyond your superficial dismissals and see how much thought they’re based upon. You can certainly choose instead not to enlighten us; that’s your choice. > [@](#): > > Naxos is fixated on the idea And I have given his statements here no attention whatever. They are as superficially tribalist, and childish, as the Israel jingoists’ have been here. Please. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/205 "2011-05-30T19:20:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You already _did_, and I was responding to _you_. I was trying to drag you beyond your superficial dismissals and see how much thought they’re based upon. You can certainly choose instead not to enlighten us; that’s your choice. > > And I have given his statements here no attention whatever. They are as superficially tribalist, and childish, as the Israel jingoists’ have been here. Sorry. I don’t participate in threads simply to give you one more reason to whine. That “the Jews” wanted to establish Israel for religious reasons is a false statement that, injected into this thread, particularly in the manner that Naxos did it, amounts to trolling. As Mod, I will instruct a poster to stop trolling. There is nothing “superficial” about that action. Beyond that, I have no obligation to participate, so stop trying to drag me into a discussion where my opinion will simply be one more passel of decibels added to the cacophony, (or an excuse for someone to whine that they disagree with my opinion). ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/206 "2011-05-30T20:19:15Z")
On May 14, 1948, Israel declared statehood - despite objections from the U.S. > [@](#): > > ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE’S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL. Not all members were present, as some were stuck in Jerusalem (which was under attack). Two women did sign the Declaration, though. One was Golda Meir. If anyone is interested, the World Zionist Organization made no mention of divine right at its [first convention](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism), and many of Israel’s founders were secular - Marxists, actually. Israel was founded on kibbutzim and brotherhood, and Palestine was a goal for not historical, but practical reasons. > [@](#): > > ``` > 1. The promotion by appropriate means of the settlement in Eretz-Israel of Jewish farmers, artisans, and manufacturers. > > 2. The organization and uniting of the whole of Jewry by means of appropriate institutions, both local and international, in accordance with the laws of each country. > > 3. The strengthening and fostering of Jewish national sentiment and national consciousness. > > 4. Preparatory steps toward obtaining the consent of governments, where necessary, in order to reach the goals of Zionism. > > ``` The Jewish State now exists, but it is not free from persecution [on the basis of being Jewish]. If you want to be angry about the events leading up to 1948, blame the British for double-dealing. Even the discussion of God in the [Declaration of Independence](http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Declaration+of+Establishment+of+State+of+Israel.htm) was omitted. There is something called a a Jewish people, and no matter what people on the board or the Orthodox think, God is _not_ required. Israel today is mostly secular. Likud enjoys popularity in Israel with some secular Israelis because of security fears. It should be noted that the new Kadima party won the majority of the 2009 election, but failed to put together a coalition government. Otherwise Livni could’ve been the PM talking to the world right now. Blaming Israelis for all of Israel’s mistakes is like blaming me for the war in Iraq or the Native American genocide or even deaths in the Holocaust, since the U.S. refused to admit Jewish refugees during the war. Note _Hatikvah_, the national anthem of Israel, makes no mention of divine right. > [@](#): > > As long as the Jewish spirit is yearning deep in the heart, > With eyes turned toward the East, looking toward Zion, > Then our hope - the two-thousand-year-old hope - will not be lost: > To be a free people in our land, > The land of Zion and Jerusalem. Sorry, but the Christian Evangelical and right-wing of the right wing Likud narrative is not one that most Jews share. Without the secular socialists (you know? those really scary pinko commies?) Israel wouldn’t exist. While Jews do call Israel their “homeland”, the quest for statehood came out of self-determination, not quasi-religious imperialism – and it existed long before World War II. There are only two countries I can think of that call themselves the place for the exiles, and that is Israel (“Ingathering of Exiles”) and the U.S (“Mother of Exiles”, i.e., the Statue of Liberty). Both were founded on natural rights philosophy. > [@](#): > > This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/207 "2011-05-30T21:08:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The Jewish so-called “settlers” in Palestine. Who did you think? The Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab lands who had fled to Israel. That’s who **ibn Warraq** and **CitizenPained** was talking about. In terms of the settlements, the settlements get about 1000 people a year from outside Israel, but the vast majority is either internal immigration from Israel or just natural increase. The idea of the settlements being made up of Jews from outside Israel just isn’t an accurate one. I’m looking at 2003 figures here, the most recent I have at hand, and in that year, the settler population increased by 11,600 people. Of those people, 900 were from outside Israel, 3400 were from Israel proper, and 7,700 were born in the territories. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/208 "2011-05-30T21:56:05Z")
Gush Katif, an agricultural community which was evacuated in Gaza, had both Jews and Palestinian Muslims living in it. I wonder how those Palestinians feel about that evacuation since they didn’t follow their Jewish neighbors and they lost jobs and security. 😕 Ariel (north west of Jerusalem) is pretty much a _[suburb](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/MaaleAdummim_red-roof.JPG/800px-MaaleAdummim_red-roof.JPG)_. Ariel may be annexed formally and it has 20k residents and a university. The difference is that while Gush Katif was sort of a resurrection of an old Jewish community + part of Israel’s plan to weaken the PLO in Gaza, Ariel was built from nothing. By secularists, even. The Ariel residents displaced no one, but it is not immune to suicide bombers. imho, that kind of _settlement_ carries weight in Israel’s position that some blocs should be annexed with land swaps. Some settlements, like the two I just mentioned, have benefited Jews and Muslims. The latter was built on once inhospitable plot of land ignored by everyone and has a university that Arabs attend and factories that Arabs are employed in. Still, the issue of settlement is still contentious in Israeli and larger Jewish communities. I never thought I’d say this, but I miss Sharon. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/209 "2011-05-30T23:14:03Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Gush Katif, an agricultural community which was evacuated in Gaza, had both Jews and Palestinian Muslims living in it. I wonder how those Palestinians feel about that evacuation since they didn’t follow their Jewish neighbors and they lost jobs and security. 😕 Two things. First of all, the picture you linked to was of Ma’ale Adunim. This is Ariel. [![](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/10/world/ARIEL3/ARIEL3-articleLarge.jpg) ](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/10/world/ARIEL3/ARIEL3-articleLarge.jpg) Also, even though Palestinians did and still do live in al-Mawasi, and they’re Bedouins, so they have a special status, the relationship between the villagers of al-Mawasi and the settlers of Gush Katif wasn’t really all that great, and they did suffer from curfews and restriction of movement. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/210 "2011-05-31T14:11:30Z")
[T **HE GENERAL’S SON**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4ZfnpN4Dfc&feature=youtu.be) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/211 "2011-05-31T15:24:12Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [T **HE GENERAL’S SON**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4ZfnpN4Dfc&feature=youtu.be) Care to offer any information on what you’re linking to? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/212 "2011-05-31T15:29:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Care to offer any information on what you’re linking to? 'Well, it started when daddy general met mommy general, and they loved each other very much … ’ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/213 "2011-05-31T15:37:58Z")
I think his point is that Israel is a liberal, pluralistic society that welcomes differences of opinion. I agree, and applaud him for pointing that out. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/214 "2011-05-31T17:34:11Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So, the trouble here is you can’t understand my point. Well, you should have said something earlier, though I did go to pains to try and clarify what I was saying for you. Several times actually. > > Sadly, I can’t MAKE you understand why anyone who looks at a map and can understand what they are looking at and who knows the history of the region which includes more than just a somewhat vague idea of what happened in 1967 would see that there are valid security concerns, and that it’s not all (or even mostly) about bed-wetting. I don’t think there is any profit to either of us in continuing this discussion…you didn’t and don’t understand even vaguely what I was getting at and think I’m clueless, and I don’t have the patience with someone as disingenuous as you are. C’est la vie. Sometimes ignorance simply can’t be fought. > > And I explained to you why you were wrong in several different ways. I didn’t change my argument at all…you simply didn’t understand what that argument was and your knee was jerking so hard that it’s little wonder that was the case. > > -XT This is your third or fourth attempt to extricate yourself from your original howler. The first and most funny argument was that OK, Israel _did_ manage to defend their 1967 borders but it was a close run thing. I’m quite happy for your original statement and subsequent statements to make my case for me in this one, i don’t really need to add another word. The only thing left here is entertainment value from your replies and since your arguments are getting progressively less and less funny you’re going to have to come up with something better if you want an another reply from me. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/215 "2011-05-31T17:38:58Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Two things. First of all, the picture you linked to was of Ma’ale Adunim. This is Ariel. > > [http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/10/world/ARIEL3/ARIEL3-articleLarge.jpg](http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/09/10/world/ARIEL3/ARIEL3-articleLarge.jpg) > > Also, even though Palestinians did and still do live in al-Mawasi, and they’re Bedouins, so they have a special status, the relationship between the villagers of al-Mawasi and the settlers of Gush Katif wasn’t really all that great, and they did suffer from curfews and restriction of movement. Oops, pardon the link error, thanks. I didn’t mean to insinuate that they had great relations, but rather enjoyed a degree of security. Were all Arabs employed Bedouin? [Gaza Arabs Sue Gush Katif Farmers](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137872) I have a feeling this kind of sentiment will carry over for future WB withdrawals. 😕 It’s Israel national News, which anyone can argue is slanted, but I think the basic facts are the same: Israel pulled out and former employees want compensation from _farmers_, not government. Can’t have it both ways, imo. Are these the same employees who saw the greenhouses looted by other Arabs? It was my understanding that funds were raised and given to the farmers so that the Palestinians could keep them, but they were looted and wrecked after the pullout. I’m sympathetic to the settlers. It isn’t that I thought they should say -f no- but you had two or three generations of people who were supported by the Israeli government. I’m sure they literally thought they were serving their country. And then you force them to leave, which sucks in itself, but then fail to provide for them? Maybe it’s my midwestern roots or whatever, but I understand what _land_ can mean to someone. For Gush Katif, it was their livelihood. According to news reports I’ve seen over the years, they suffer from high unemployment, lack of housing, etc. Some relocated to the West Bank. The next pullout has to be better coordinated than that…and Netanyahu’s government will have a harder time with Round 2 if Round 1 isn’t taken care of. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/216 "2011-05-31T17:43:17Z")
Dick Dastardly and xtisme, since you both agree that your exchange is pointless, may I presume that I won’t have to keep checking in on your personal remarks for a while? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/217 "2011-05-31T17:58:43Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Dick Dastardly and xtisme, since you both agree that your exchange is pointless, may I presume that I won’t have to keep checking in on your personal remarks for a while? [/QUOTE] Why are you bringing me into this? I haven’t posted anything in reply to Dick in a couple of pages, and haven’t posted anything at all on this page of the thread at all. I have no intention of responding to his latest bullshit either, since it’s really the same thing I’ve already addressed and to me just a way to lure (hint hint) me back into the discussion. If you think I’ve said anything about DD since your warning let me know either via PM or post it in the thread, and I’ll be happy to apologize. I’m already done with him in this thread, so you don’t need to keep checking back on MY remarks here… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/218 "2011-05-31T19:15:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The Jewish so-called “settlers” in Palestine. Who did you think? Ok, so then you think that the Yemeni Jews who fled to Tel Aviv following pogrom-like anti-Jewish riots “displaced themselves” and are “settlers”. I have to say that’s an unbelievably stupid and extremely hypocritical thing for an American to say. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/219 "2011-05-31T20:10:21Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Why are you bringing me into this? Because I saw your quoted post when I was heading out the door on an errand and I failed to go back and see how long ago you had actually posted it. I apologize. = = = On the other hand, Dick Dastardly, your repeated comments about other posters are going to get you into serious trouble if they continue. Dragging up a five day old post to make personal comments about the poster is not appropriate behavior for this forum. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/220 "2011-06-01T02:11:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, so then you think that the Yemeni Jews who fled to Tel Aviv following pogrom-like anti-Jewish riots “displaced themselves” and are “settlers”. WTF? We’re talking about smug, middle-class people moving to new blocks of flats, with air conditioning and cable TV, in an occupied foreign country, on land whose previous occupants didn’t get to leave truly voluntarily, because they can get lower rent there, enabled by their government’s policies, and with the expectation that the situation will continue long enough that they can become “demographic realities on the ground”. Why should anyone place much weight on their bleatings about it being their “homeland”? > [@](#): > > I have to say that’s an unbelievably stupid and extremely hypocritical thing for an American to say. It might be, if any had said it. I have to wonder what you think this discussion is about. You’re not making any sense at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805.md?page=12)