# If not the Green Line, then what line should be the Israel-Palestine border? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805 "2011-05-22T19:51:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/221 "2011-06-01T03:57:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > WTF? We’re talking about smug, middle-class people moving to new blocks of flats, with air conditioning and cable TV, in an occupied foreign country, on land whose previous occupants didn’t get to leave truly voluntarily, because they can get lower rent there, enabled by their government’s policies, and with the expectation that the situation will continue long enough that they can become “demographic realities on the ground”. Why should anyone place much weight on their bleatings about it being their “homeland”? Ok, this statement only makes sense if you were referring to the settlers on the West Bank which are illegal. However, that makes no sense based on your responses throughout this thread and the last one that I ripped into you for. CP said, > [@](#): > > What is shameful is someone being okay with displacing six million Jews because of some bad propaganda, even when the facts scream otherwise. To which you said, > [@](#): > > The facts scream that they displaced themselves, and to places that others had been displaced from earlier Now anyone remotely familiar with the situation would recognize that when she referred to “six million Jews” she was referring to all of Israel’s Jewish population, who, with few exceptions are overwhelmingly not people “displaced themselves” but refugees from Europe or the Muslim parts of the Middle East. As I said, your statement shows disgusting insensitivity towards refugees and is extremely hypocritical for an American to say since the European settlers weren’t refugees, weren’t returning to their ancestral homeland and were far, far worse to the people living their and did genuinely engage in genocide. When challenged as to who you meant, you proclaimed, > [@](#): > > The Jewish so-called “settlers” in Palestine. Who did you think? Now anyone remotely familiar with the conflict knows that “Palestine” constitutes far more than just the West Bank, but all of Israel and, depending on how you feel, Jordan as well. Similarly anyone knowledgeable about the situation when they make references to “Palestine” does not mean just the West Bank and that is also true of people in the West Bank. In every Arab country, whenever you see a map of “Palestine” it includes all of Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip(though for political reasons not Jordan). Similarly, when Palestinians refer to Jewish “settlers” in “Palestine” they mean Yemeni Jews living in Tel Aviv since as far as they’re concerned all the Jews living there are alien invaders who’ve stolen land that didn’t belong to them. This is of course similar to the way Black South Africans used to say things like “One settler, one bullet” referring to White South Africans. Now apparently you’re claiming that when you were referring to the “six million Jews who _displaced themselves_” and raging against the Jews who’ve dared to settle in “Palestine” that you were only referring to the Jewish settlers on the West Bank. Ok, I’ll take you at your word that you thought that there were six million Jews living in the West Bank and that “Palestine” consisted solely of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. I apologize for my remarks then. I shouldn’t have assumed that you knew what “Palestine” constituted or had an inkling of how many Jews lived in Israel. I did not realize how little you knew about the conflict. Since you’re so passionate about it I assumed that you had some understanding of it. Once again, I apologize for my assumptions and won’t make that mistake again. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/222 "2011-06-01T04:43:31Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I have a feeling this kind of sentiment will carry over for future WB withdrawals. 😕 It’s Israel national News, which anyone can argue is slanted, but I think the basic facts are the same: Israel pulled out and former employees want compensation from _farmers_, not government. Can’t have it both ways, imo. Yea, I don’t really hold must stake in what Arutz Sheva has to say. It’s pretty much a settler mouthpiece. And the Palestinians did lose the lawsuit, saying that the factory closure was an act of government and that they weren’t “fired”, so they’re not entitled to severance pay. So I don’t really see what’s so outrageous here, unless you think that the bringing of the lawsuit was outrageous in the first place, which I don’t think it is. I mean, I don’t think it ever had much of a chance, but I don’t blame them for trying. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/223 "2011-06-01T05:29:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I hate to tell you but the Palestinians aren’t anymore “dark skinned” than the Israelis. > > With your attacks on religion(which makes little sense since the most extreme political party in Israel is militantly secular) and you’re trying to frame this as a “dark skinned” versus “light skinned” issue, you seem to be trying to force a complicated issue Middle Eastern square peg into a western round hole. > > You might as well claim that Rwanda occurred because the Hutus enjoyed killing “dark skinned people” and blame the Troubles in Ulster on the Pope. A significant source of financial support for the Israeli government, its baseless occupation and its military operations against Palestinians is a US white conservative Christian political block that wants to see Israel prevail in its purpose and thus hasten the second coming of Christ. It’s not the only support, but it’s the spark that drives the white conservative US voters and their political representatives in supporting anything that will cleanse the area of non-Christian dark skinned people – from a US perspective, not an Israeli one. I hope this post was not too confrontational. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/224 "2011-06-01T05:41:57Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > A significant source of financial support for the Israeli government, its baseless occupation and its military operations against Palestinians is a US white conservative Christian political block that wants to see Israel prevail in its purpose and thus hasten the second coming of Christ. > > It’s not the only support, but it’s the spark that drives the white conservative US voters and their political representatives in supporting anything that will cleanse the area of non-Christian dark skinned people – from a US perspective, not an Israeli one. > > I hope this post was not too confrontational. With all due respect, you seem to be making judgements about a conflict not based on the history of the conflict, but based on your own feelings about the religious right in the US. I would say that you for starters overstate the influence of the religious right in the US. For example of all the Republican presidential candidates in my lifetime the only one who was very religious was George W. Bush. The others, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Dole, Bush I, and McCain were, at best, nominally Christian. Furthermore, in Israel the issue between the Israelis and the Palestinians is about nationalism, not religion, though obviously there is a significant extremist religious minority within Israel, and, within the past 25 years, radical Islam has become a force to be reckoned with amongst the Palestinians. It also makes little sense referring to “dark-skinned” Palestinians since many are lighter than most American and some, including both Suha Arafat and El Hajj Amin Al Husseini(the father of Palestinian nationalism) are blond-haired and blue-eyed. Furthermore, many, if not most Jewish Israelis are indistinguishable from Arabs. For the record, I’m “dark-skinned.” An no, for what it’s worth, I don’t think you’re post was too confrontational and I do think you deserve credit for explaining yourself. Also, I don’t mean for this post to come across as too confrontational or insulting either. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/225 "2011-06-01T05:50:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > With all due respect, you seem to be making judgements about a conflict not based on the history of the conflict, […] There is no history of a conflict other the imposition of the West on a Middle Eastern land and imposing the West’s will on permitting the land grab and the killing of the local population. The divine purpose of the land grab, occupation and indiscriminate killing is beyond rational boundaries. Anything that will validate a claim of ownership of a piece of Earth because some people have some specific religious belief _must_ be considered as preferential treatment, if not schizophrenic if we are to take religious claims as real. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/226 "2011-06-01T06:01:42Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > There is no history of a conflict other the imposition of the West on a Middle Eastern land and imposing the West’s will on permitting the land grab and the killing of the local population. Huh? You think there was no conflict in the Middle East between Jews, Christians and Muslims until “the West” decided to impose it’s will on the region. You really ought to look up the history of the Ottoman Empire before making such statements. > [@](#): > > The divine purpose of the land grab, occupation and indiscriminate killing is beyond rational boundaries. Anything that will validate a claim of ownership of a piece of Earth because some people have some specific religious belief must be considered as preferential treatment, if not schizophrenic if we are to take religious claims as real. That is incoherent claptrap which has utterly nothing to do with the conflict. None of Israeli’s major founders were Zionists out of religious convictions. Most in fact were atheists. Please read up on the conflict and stop foolishly thinking that David Ben Gurion and Ariel Sharon are like Pat Robertson and George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/227 "2011-06-01T06:15:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > You think there was no conflict in the Middle East between Jews, Christians and Muslims until “the West” decided to impose it’s will on the region. > > You really ought to look up the history of the Ottoman Empire before making such statements. > > […] Nobody stopped anyone from moving to Palestine and living close to their perceived religious sacred grounds. But the West’s financial support of the land grab and mass killing is the reason Israel is a recognized country. There wouldn’t be any Russian or European immigrants moving to occupation land in the area without US funds. I’ve paid for it. I know what I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/228 "2011-06-01T06:16:32Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Yea, I don’t really hold must stake in what Arutz Sheva has to say. It’s pretty much a settler mouthpiece. And the Palestinians did lose the lawsuit, saying that the factory closure was an act of government and that they weren’t “fired”, so they’re not entitled to severance pay. So I don’t really see what’s so outrageous here, **unless you think that the bringing of the lawsuit was outrageous in the first place** , which I don’t think it is. I mean, I don’t think it ever had much of a chance, but I don’t blame them for trying. I thought that it was a little outrageous, because you can’t demand a country to withdraw itself from your land and then demand your employers (who were forced to evacuate) to pay you compensation. _Especially_ if moves had been made to ensure your jobs were kept but were hampered by your current/new leadership. It was the ‘having it both ways’ part. And the fact they sued the farmers, not the government. I have sympathy, but not when it comes to nitpicking the law. Anyway, the religious settlers are people I can do without, but Israel did not compensate them for what their land and businesses were worth, so I can see their anger. Like I said, they were part of Israel’s ‘security’ mission. > [@Naxos](#): > > **A significant source of financial support for the Israeli government** , its baseless occupation and its military operations against Palestinians is a US white conservative Christian political block that wants to see Israel prevail in its purpose and thus hasten the second coming of Christ. > > It’s not the only support, but it’s the spark that drives the white conservative US voters and their political representatives in supporting anything that will cleanse the area of non-Christian dark skinned people – from a US perspective, not an Israeli one. > > I hope this post was not too confrontational. Cite? What’s with your obsession with \*light \*and dark people? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That is incoherent claptrap which has utterly nothing to do with the conflict. > > None of Israeli’s major founders were Zionists out of religious convictions. Most in fact were atheists. > > Please read up on the conflict and stop foolishly thinking that David Ben Gurion and Ariel Sharon are like Pat Robertson and George W. Bush. **Ibn** , I rather love reading your smackdowns as you’re much more nuanced and thoughtful than I, but he’s not going to break. There have been plenty of myth-busting posts in this thread and it’s going to be the same crap until the end of days…perhaps if they believe it, it shall come true. ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/229 "2011-06-01T06:19:16Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > […] > > What’s with your obsession with \*light \*and dark people? > > […] It’s not an obsession. I can read the intention of conservative US politics. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/230 "2011-06-01T06:30:10Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Nobody stopped anyone from moving to Palestine and living close to their perceived religious sacred grounds. > > But the West’s financial support of the land grab Is it bad I just snickered for being part of the WZO and Jewish National Fund by proxy? Maybe. But you don’t dispute that this ‘land grab’ was done by peaceful and legal means, right? The **purchasing** of land? > [@](#): > > and mass killing is the reason Israel is a recognized country. No, actually, Israel is a recognized country because it fought a war in 1948 with private militias and ragtag planes and guns. Hell, they even took down British AF planes who were spying. > [@](#): > > There wouldn’t be any Russian or European immigrants moving to occupation land in the area without US funds. And there wouldn’t be a Hamas without the Arab League. And your point is: Money matters! Thank you, Captain Obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/231 "2011-06-01T06:31:43Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > It’s not an obsession. I can read the intention of conservative US politics. But what if my family is darker than I and I’m a liberal? 😕 What if Israelis aren’t all “white”? What if some Christians are “Arabs”? Pssht, now what? ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/232 "2011-06-01T06:43:14Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > But what if my family is darker than I and I’m a liberal? 😕 > > What if Israelis aren’t all “white”? > > What if some Christians are “Arabs”? > > Pssht, now what? Do you actually think that anything and everything that has been said about all kinds of social situations or conflicts has to include and define your own personal individual experience? Do they teach Statistics in High School, or Uni any more? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/233 "2011-06-01T06:56:45Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Do you actually think that anything and everything that has been said about all kinds of social situations or conflicts has to include and define your own personal individual experience? > > Do they teach Statistics in High School, or Uni any more? Since you couldn’t seem to comprehend what **Ibn** was telling you, I tried to dumb it down with some personal experience. 😉 edit: disclaimer: My birth mom’s family is Jewish & madre numero dos is Israeli. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/234 "2011-06-01T07:52:14Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I thought that it was a little outrageous, because you can’t demand a country to withdraw itself from your land and then demand your employers (who were forced to evacuate) to pay you compensation. _Especially_ if moves had been made to ensure your jobs were kept but were hampered by your current/new leadership. It was the ‘having it both ways’ part. And the fact they sued the farmers, not the government. Which is why they lost. They had to sue the factory owners, though, and not the government, because the factory owners were the ones who owed them severance pay, not the government. I don’t know if they’d have a suit against the government. Probably not, but maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/235 "2011-06-01T17:27:27Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Because I saw your quoted post when I was heading out the door on an errand and I failed to go back and see how long ago you had actually posted it. > > I apologize. > > = = = > > On the other hand, Dick Dastardly, your repeated comments about other posters are going to get you into serious trouble if they continue. Dragging up a five day old post to make personal comments about the poster is not appropriate behavior for this forum. > > [/Moderating] I haven’t been here for five days, I’m just replying as soon as i can. And I didn’t say anything about the poster, i just said his arguments were becoming less and less funny. Lots of people on this board call other arguments nonsense, rubbish etc. and nobody says a word. In another thread I’ve got somebody replying to me saying “that’s not difficult to understand, even for you.” Why don’t you jump on him too? I appreciate the horrible job you moderators have on this board and thank you for doing it but I’d appreciate it if you could apply the same standard to every poster. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/236 "2011-06-01T17:38:47Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Do you actually think that anything and everything that has been said about all kinds of social situations or conflicts has to include and define your own personal individual experience? > > Do they teach Statistics in High School, or Uni any more? Heh, as far as I know, the only sizable ethnic group in Israel/Palestine that is actually black-skinned is a subset of the Jewish Israelis - the Beta Israel. 😉 > **[Beta Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel)** > > The Beta Israel,\[b\] or Ethiopian Jews,\[c\] are a Jewish group originating in the Amhara and Tigray regions of northern Ethiopia, where they historically inhabited more than 500 small villages. The majority are concentrated in what is today North Gondar Zone, Shire Inda Selassie, Wolqayit, Tselemti, Dembia, Segelt, Quara, and Belesa. Since their official recognition as Jewish under Israel's Law of Return, most of the Beta Israel have immigrated to Israel, through several Israeli government in The e... Sorta spoils the ‘nasty White colonialists vs. dark-skinned locals’ narrative (well, that an the fact that _half_ the Jewish population of Israel is Mizrai and indistinguishable from their Arab neighbours). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/237 "2011-06-01T18:54:02Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I mean the USA. What security does Egypt provide to the USA that they are threatening to pull? Or are we giving Egypt economic aid to provide Israel with security, which you want us to pull when they stop providing Israel with taht security? If that is the case, it seems to me that we are providing Israel with military aid by giving Egypt economic aid for ISRAEL’S security. We are effectively bribing Egypt not to mess with Israel. > [@](#): > > I know full well how Japan’s military spending works, thanks. But a de-militarized state of Palestine is more like de-militarized territory. Example:it prevents Palestinians from becoming allies with Iran and using that airspace. Hey, you’re the one taht brought up the Japan analogy. I was just pointing out that japan has quite a significant military. > [@](#): > > Israel is not going to let Palestinians have a military. And in what way does that make Palestine a sovereign power or are you talking about creating Palestine as a client state? > [@](#): > > Make sense based on military conflict? Is there some line you can draw through Israel that will be any safer than the 1967 borders? Israel seems to have done a pretty good job of defending those borders before, didn’t they, so please explain how 1967 is INdefensible? > [@](#): > > And you want Israel to be punished for developing what others have neglected? Is it really punishment to say that you must return land that you stole even if you did great things with that land, how exactly is that punishment? If I squat on your land and turn it into farmland, does that mean you get to keep it? Besides if the language you quoted means anything it means that i think that we must take into consideration that some of the land that Israel stole was near worthless (and some of it was not worthless) before Israel stole it. > [@](#): > > But seriously, it’s not going to happen. Israel has been fighting for its existence since…well, before statehood. About 100 years now. Whatever mistakes were made in 67 can’t be undone now. It isn’t how things work. And it isn’t reasonable to ask. Its entirely reasonable to ask and 15 years ago, I believe it would have been considered reasonable by many in Israel as well. Engaging in positional bargaining and hoping the bargain will stick is naive, people will only tolerate that sort of deal as long as they have to. > [@](#): > > I find your attitude that Israel is at fault for all of this a little alarming. You kept comparing Israel to European conflicts. Why? I’m saying that after the end of WWII, I think the rules changed and the “spoils of war” theory doesn’t have the legs it once had because we recognized that this only breeds more conflict. > [@](#): > > Are you trying to say that terrorist attacks in Israel is Israel’s fault? Are you trying to say that Israel is faultless in generating the terrorist attacks that are coming out of the middle east (including the ones targetting Israel)? > [@](#): > > Which is what Netanyahu seems to be willing to do! But there’s not going to be a land swap based on 48 borders. There’d be a land swap based on 67 armistice lines, and the idea that you can turn the clock back to 1948 and erase all of the Arab mistakes in the region to punish Israel is ridiculous. IIRC Israel fired the first shots in 1967 so in what sense is it punishing Israel to ask them to disgorge land grabbed in 1967? Here’s the thing, if Israel really wants peace, they cannot engage in positional bargaining by saying “I have the upper hand so the deal we reach should reflect my superior negotiating position” because it will be seen as unfair and the peace will only last as long as Israel can enforce that peace. Because if israel waits until they are in an inferior bargaining position to start giving stuff up, the Palestinians will not be in the mood to let them even keep what they deserve. If you believe that the only peace Israel will ever have is the peace they extract from the point of a gun, then there really is no point even trying to reach a peace agreement and they should just look for an excuse to exterminate or expel the Palestinias because sooner or later the Palestinians will either gain the upper hand or get their hands on a nuke. > [@](#): > > ? Air superiority? > **[Air supremacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_supremacy)** > > Air supremacy (as well as air superiority) is the degree to which a side in a conflict holds control of air power over opposing forces. There are levels of control of the air in aerial warfare. Control of the air is the aerial equivalent of command of the sea. > Air power has increasingly become a powerful element of military campaigns; military planners view having an environment of at least air superiority as a necessity. Air supremacy allows increased bombing efforts, tactical air support fo... > [@](#): > > Thank heavens you’re not in the State Department. Sure the Buiddhist idea is a bit silly but I just think the Jerusalem problem is intractable and this is consistent with my conversations with people who work in the state department, the UN and diplomats from all over the place. Leaving it in Israel’s hands will be the cause for continuing conflict forever, splitting off East Jerusalem is politically impossible for an Israel leader to agree to. I was just giving Buddhists as an example of a disinterested third party > [@](#): > > I can’t quite seem to get your position on things. What about the refugee situation? Should Jordan and Egypt help pay for restitution? Why do you think Jordan and Egypt should help pay for restitution? I’m not averse to the idea but I’d like to hear why you think it is appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/238 "2011-06-01T19:08:45Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > No. The PLO will not stand for Jewish settlement on ‘their’ land. The funny thing is that before Israel carved itself out of Palestine, the muslims in the area were pretty content to allow Jewish settlements on ‘their’ land. Can we at least acknowledge that much of the hatred towards Jews in the middle east springs from that initial precipitating factor? > [@](#): > > But really, I find ut rather obnoxious that the group with the least amount of power expects a sovereign nation that has withstood said groups’ attacks on their state to give them equal concessions. Is this about finding a peace that is consistent with the current relatative bargaining power of the participants or finding a peace that will last? because if it is the former, then there really isn’t any point to the peace process at all is there? > [@](#): > > What Abbas is doing, though he won’t say it right, is holding up a white flag in one hand and a gun in the other. He’s not looking for peace- not after making nice with Hamas and going to the UN. White flag? As in surrender? He can look for peace without surrendering can’t he? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/239 "2011-06-01T19:17:32Z")
[QUOTE=] The funny thing is that before Israel carved itself out of Palestine, the muslims in the area were pretty content to allow Jewish settlements on ‘their’ land. [/QUOTE] I assume you mean other than the Jews who were already living in the area. It’s true that the folks living in Palestine were willing (even eager) to sell Jews moving into the area what was considered worthless land…they were less thrilled when the Jews started to make that land more productive, however. That’s when the trouble really started. > [@](#): > > Can we at least acknowledge that much of the hatred towards Jews in the middle east springs from that initial precipitating factor? Depends on what you mean by that. I think that much of the hatred towards the Jews stems from the same source as much of the hatred of the Jews anywhere…the fact that they were a deliberately isolated group of people who kept themselves apart from the local population, and thus provided easy targets. The fact that they fought back against early attempts to attack them in the Palestine region probably didn’t help endear them much to the locals either. > [@](#): > > Is this about finding a peace that is consistent with the current relatative bargaining power of the participants or finding a peace that will last? because if it is the former, then there really isn’t any point to the peace process at all is there? There hasn’t seemed to be much point to it in decades, to be honest. What would you suggest, however? How should Israel negotiate with the Palestinians? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/240 "2011-06-01T19:23:53Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Being an Isareli is not shameful. Being proud of your country that happens to be Israel is not shameful. Pointing out facts to place events in context is not shameful. > > What is shameful is someone being okay with displacing six million Jews because of some bad propaganda, even when the facts scream otherwise. What is shameful is blaming Israel for _everything_, and I mean everything, no matter who is in charge. No matter who did what, Israel is somehow at fault. What is shameful is making excuses for suicide bombers. What is shameful is turning a blind eye to a Fatah-Hamas union [after we supported Fatah and trained men in good faith] while pointing fingers at Netanyahu for being anxious about it. What is shameful is this idea that you can place the fate of eleven million people on one man and everyone that is sympathetic to him - what is shameful is this idea that you can do that, place all of the blame and responsibility on one party and absolve everyone else of the rest. It’s shameful to cry foul at Israel’s intercepting of a flotilla while neglecting to mention that Hamas _turned away the goods_ after Israelis checked the supplies and unloaded them. It’s shameful to call Israelis corrupt thieves while conveniently ignoring that Palestinian leadership steals their people’s aid. It’s shameful to blame Israel for the refugee problem when no less than four Arab countries kept them in squalor for twenty years. What’s shameful is wanting to hold Israel up to one idea of ‘international law’ while disregarding the blatant disrespect of human life that feeds Hamas. > > _That_ is shameful. > > Is that antisemitism? Well, in many parts of the world, criticizing Israel and calling someone a shameful\* Zionist \*is a euphemism for something, and it’s not to be said in polite company. Maybe you think you’re sticking up for the little guy, but in reality, you’re not. You’re sticking up for professional terrorists and puppeteers, not Palestinians. > > I have been pretty calm over the last few weeks of Israel-bashing, but now I am fed up. Yeah, Bibi may be a jerk, but right now he’s my jerk, and Israel may have made mistakes, but every country has them, and I know of no other people in history that have gone through that much and come out with a resolve that is _not_ bred out of hate. > > So if you want to actually participate in a productive conversation about Israel and Palestine, that would be great. Because I’m pretty sure that most everyone that you have argued with has been sympathetic, realistic, and staightforward. You claim we’re so stubborn and won’t budge for ‘peace’, well, let me tell you something, mister, this dog and pony show the PLO has been doing for the last forty years has accomplished nothing but bloodshed and two generations of hopelessness. That’s the side you want to be on? You want to give me PLO and Hamas _talking points_? Where is your productivity? What’s your great idea - one that isn’t blaming it on someone else? > > Do you know what happened a few weeks back when someone thought they’d blow shit up in Jerusalem? Cell phones went off just to check and make sure so-and-so was all right, and then the day continued. But no country should have to deal with that. Do you understand that Jews in the area have been dealing with this kind of shit for the last hundred years? You do get that Jews everywhere have been dealing with this for the last few thousand years? Don’t worry; I’ll spare you the stories about concentration camps and endless wars and hostages and blown-up schoolbuses. > > Hamas & the PLO are gangs. They are spineless thugs who are too busy pissing lines in the sand instead of helping those who depend on them the most. Do you know what’s gutless? Telling a kid to strap a bomb on himself and drive towards a checkpoint. Talk about shame. > > This is about _people_. Right now, Israelis have the better luck. But this isn’t Israelis v. Palestinians. This is about Palestinian _leadership_ and what is and isn’t viable when dealing with a ticking time bomb. > > You know what a good American is? Someone who wants to make his country better. You want to root for the Palestinians? Pray they get a real leader. I am, and its more for _their_ sake than for Israel’s, because Israel is going to be around for a long, long time. > > Do you know what’s worse than a million or so stateless Palestinians in the West Bank? > > Dead ones. Wow, Elvis really struck a nerve didn’t he. Well, the truth can hurt sometimes. Israel negotiates as if every inch of land of a Palestinian state is a gift from Israel while the Palestinians still feel that anything they let the Israeli’s keep is being taken from them. 1967 is a line that nations in the region are ready to accept(which until recently Israel didn’t care about because they didn’t think there was much of a threat from any of these neighboring states, but the arab spring may change all that) and Palestinians seem willing to talk about and some Israelis see that as the palestinian opening offer like the MSRP on a new car (or the MSRP on a high end bedroom set). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805.md?page=13)