# If not the Green Line, then what line should be the Israel-Palestine border? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805 "2011-05-22T19:51:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/21 "2011-05-23T06:26:23Z")
It should absolutely be the '67 borders, by the way. That’s what was agreed to. I’m not buying the “indefensible” shit. The settlers are criminals. Why should they be defended? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/22 "2011-05-23T06:37:42Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The PLA put you in charge of their negotiation team, so that you can say what’s a dealbreaker and what’s not? 🙂 But there aren’t really many settlements in the Eastern Jordan Valley…and I think the only ones with populations over 1000 are Mizpe Yeriho, Ma’ale Efrayim, and Kokhav Hashahar. But I have no idea what’s going to happen. Are you Israeli or just have a good sense of geography? 😛 I think some of the communities there are also tourist spots, no? I wonder how that plays out. Not that Israel will suffer, but I wonder what happens to the communities they’ve built. Also: Water. That is an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/23 "2011-05-23T06:38:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’d rather see Palestine expel some illegal immigrants,. Jordan does that all the time… > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It should absolutely be the '67 borders, by the way. That’s what was agreed to. I’m not buying the “indefensible” shit. The settlers are criminals. Why should they be defended? Who agreed to what? Oh god, nevermind. It’s the **Dio** show. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/24 "2011-05-23T06:46:09Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Jordan does that all the time… So? > [@](#): > > Who agreed to what? Israel agreed to the '67 borders. > [@](#): > > Oh god, nevermind. It’s the Dio show. This is lame,. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/25 "2011-05-23T06:54:42Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Also: Water. That is an issue. Water is a big issue. This whole dispute is about water rights as much as any other issue. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/26 "2011-05-23T06:55:25Z")
I’m confused. How is a Hamas-PA relationship [viable](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4072485,00.html) if > [@](#): > > “the American government has failed in the past, and will continue to fail in its attempt to convince Hamas to recognize the Israeli occupation”. ? Anyway, the borders we should be talking about are the Israeli-Egypt ones. It looks like Gazans may be able to [access](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4062439,00.html) to Israel pretty soon. And then who knows. Many more protestors killed, I’m sure, if they try to walk into Israel after September. Since we do give Egypt _economic_ aid with no benefit but for security, I hope we pull it if that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/27 "2011-05-23T06:56:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So? > > Israel agreed to the '67 borders. > > This is lame,. Not strictly, and it was many years ago when things were different, and your ridiculous left field and irrational comments are silly. I am done with your games. Not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/28 "2011-05-23T07:00:36Z")
Too bad if things were different. That’s not an excuse for stealing land. Israel agreed to those borders. The settlements are illegal. That’s all there is to it. At least that’s all there SHOULD be to it, but it’s not because Israel has special entitlements that no other country on earth has. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/29 "2011-05-23T07:04:00Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Palestine shouldn’t have one. WTF?! **Of course** Palestine should have an army. We’re talking about an **independent** country, with a near neighbor with which it will have hostile relations for some time to come (not forever). How could it not have an army? And how could Israel not want it to? The only way you can have normal military relations with Palestine is if there is **one** Palestinian Army that does not tolerate competing armies or paramilitary organizations in its territory – something which is, of course, simply a normal feature of a functional state. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/30 "2011-05-23T07:07:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Too bad if things were different. That’s not an excuse for stealing land. Israel agreed to those borders. The settlements are illegal. That’s all there is to it. At least that’s all there SHOULD be to it, but it’s not because Israel has special entitlements that no other country on earth has. That was a framework for peace, but thanks to the intafada, it was a little broken. Besides, the PLO says they aren’t bound by it. It wasn’t set in stone. It’s been dissolved. Besides, Arafat rejected what Rabin offered. You seem to think that Hamas and the PLO have special entitlements to do whatever they want and Israel should be held accountable for _everything_. :rolleyes: Get over yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/31 "2011-05-23T07:09:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > WTF?! **Of course** Palestine should have an army. We’re talking about an **independent** country, with a near neighbor with which it will have hostile relations for some time to come (not forever). How could it not have an army? De-militarized. That’s been a known for awhile. Israel will not tolerate a Palestinian Army. It will not. It should not. It would result in near-immediate war. > [@](#): > > And how could Israel not want it to? The only way you can have normal military relations with Palestine is if there is **one** Palestinian Army that does not tolerate competing armies or paramilitary organizations in its territory – something which is, of course, simply a normal feature of a functional state. Who needs military relations? They have a security force. Some of them are US-trained, actually. May I add that Japan has a pretty weak “military”? (: We negotiated that. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/32 "2011-05-23T07:10:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It should absolutely be the '67 borders, by the way. That’s what was agreed to. I’m not buying the “indefensible” shit. The settlers are criminals. Why should they be defended? First, because a lot of them aren’t criminals, under Israeli law, at least. They’re Israeli citizens, successive Israeli governments encouraged them to move to the settlements, and the State of Israel has a duty to protect them. Second, we’re talking some fairly large population centers here. Modi’in Illit has about 46,000 people, Ma’ale Adumim has about 49,000 people, Beitar Illit has about 38,000, and Ariel has about 18,000. That’s about 151,000 people. That number of people really can’t be evacuated. It’s just too many, and the Israeli government isn’t going to abandon them for the Palestinians to kill. Third, why is the Green Line sacrosanct? It’s just where the front between Israel and Jordan was when the ceasefire that ended the War of Independence ended. It was never intended to be a final border, and if it serves the course of peace that the border be redrawn, isn’t it better to have peace and a changed border than no peace and no changed border. That’s not even getting into the questions of East Jerusalem and the Golan, which are both on the wrong side of the Green Line. There’s no way in hell Israel will give them up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/33 "2011-05-23T07:16:48Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > That was a framework for peace, but thanks to the intafada, it was a little broken. Besides, the PLO says they aren’t bound by it. It wasn’t set in stone. It’s been dissolved. Besides, Arafat rejected what Rabin offered. > > You seem to think that Hamas and the PLO have special entitlements to do whatever they want and Israel should be held accountable for _everything_. :rolleyes: Get over yourself. The Palestinians are entiled to what was agreed to, and the Israelis are accountable for their own actions. Those are not controversial statements. The problem is that the US enables Israel because it is a special snowflake with special rights that no other country has. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/34 "2011-05-23T07:20:23Z")
I agree Israel will and should keep East Jerusalem. It’s always a bad idea to politically divide a city anyway. The Golan’s a problem unrelated to the Palestinian problem, not really part of this discussion. (Did Obama mention it?) If any Palestinians live there, I doubt they’re numerous enough to matter. If the WB&Gaza becomes independent Palestine, they can go there, or stay and be good Arab Israeli citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/35 "2011-05-23T07:20:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > First, because a lot of them aren’t criminals, under Israeli law, at least. They’re Israeli citizens, successive Israeli governments encouraged them to move to the settlements, and the State of Israel has a duty to protect them. Second, we’re talking some fairly large population centers here. Modi’in Illit has about 46,000 people, Ma’ale Adumim has about 49,000 people, Beitar Illit has about 38,000, and Ariel has about 18,000. That’s about 151,000 people. That number of people really can’t be evacuated. It’s just too many, and the Israeli government isn’t going to abandon them for the Palestinians to kill. Third, why is the Green Line sacrosanct? It’s just where the front between Israel and Jordan was when the ceasefire that ended the War of Independence ended. It was never intended to be a final border, and if it serves the course of peace that the border be redrawn, isn’t it better to have peace and a changed border than no peace and no changed border. > > That’s not even getting into the questions of East Jerusalem and the Golan, which are both on the wrong side of the Green Line. There’s no way in hell Israel will give them up. I agree. Ariel even has a university. My dad wanted to buy a house there and retire, but I told him to wait on that. 😉 East Jerusalem won’t be given up. It’s not even logistical at this point. And we can’t depend on U.N. to be “peacekeeping”. It’s gone. The Arabs still have control over the the Dome and alAsqa and I doubt it will be changed, but there will be no Palestinian capital there. Sucks, but, hey, that’s what happens after 63 years of war. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/36 "2011-05-23T07:21:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The Palestinians are entiled to what was agreed to, and the Israelis are accountable for their own actions. Those are not controversial statements. The problem is that the US enables Israel because it is a special snowflake with special rights that no other country has. Israel has entered no formal binding agreement with Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/37 "2011-05-23T07:22:48Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > First, because a lot of them aren’t criminals, under Israeli law, at least. They are criminals under international law. Israeli law is irrelevant and citing it is absurd. > [@](#): > > That number of people really can’t be evacuated. They can be stripped of Israeli citizenship. After that they’re on their own. They’re criminals who made their own beds. They should be given plenty of time and assistance to fuck off back to their own countries. Once the deadline passes. They’re in Palestine. Good luck, assholes. Nobody made them go squat on somebody else’s land. They made a poor life choice. That’s on them. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/38 "2011-05-23T07:23:55Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Israel has entered no formal binding agreement with Palestinians. They made an agreement with the UN, so this is a specious argument. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/39 "2011-05-23T07:29:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They made an agreement with the UN, so this is a specious argument. Cite. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805/40 "2011-05-23T07:32:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They are criminals under international law. Israeli law is irrelevant and citing it is absurd. > > They can be stripped of Israeli citizenship. After that they’re on their own. They’re criminals who made their own beds. They should be given plenty of time and assistance to fuck off back to their own countries. Once the deadline passes. They’re in Palestine. Good luck, assholes. Nobody made them go squat on somebody else’s land. They made a poor life choice. That’s on them. Palestine is a territory and it belongs to no state. But since you want to play that game, Israel should expel all Arabs that are questionably unloyal to the government and see how they fare on the rough side of the wall. 😉 I’m sure many squatted in Jerusalem after the Jordanians ran out the Jews. And in matters of international law (which is a joke) it is against international law to for a man to be a citizen with no state…er…you know what I mean. You can’t take away citizenship from a national if they have no country to go to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-not-the-green-line-then-what-line-should-be-the-israel-palestine-border/582805.md?page=3)