# If one race is faster, more athletic, stronger in sports - what's bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836 "2016-02-22T21:35:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/41 "2016-02-23T15:07:45Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Well since you are copying posts in from some other thread I have no idea about, I keep my opinion and my statement (since I am participating in this thread, not some other one I never read). > > Of course you demonstrate in your posts you can not tell the difference between the idea of the “race” of “black people” and the idea of a discrete and coherent genetic population. > What **“Politics”** is that? > > I see you making political claims off of your strong American political ideological position, but I have no political claims in this. > > There is the science - not the strange straw man distortions you make of course but the actual science. > > (how the citations to an opinion article in a newspaper you percived as Left and the Huffington post make any point other than to show the politicized interpretation you have I do not understand) I said I had used the same example and you called me a liar. I’m showing you I had used that same example before. I’m not writing a dissertation with 300 paragraphs in each of these threads. Of course I know the difference between black and white and various ethnic groups that are lumped into the skin color method of racial division. I even said such in the post you just read. I.e. if blacks are a set containing 500 ethnic groups… You make very simple reading comprehension errors I’m wondering if English is your first language. You write well and are obviously intelligent. But you parse sentences oddly. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/42 "2016-02-23T15:10:21Z")
Once again, guys, this thread isn’t about \*whether a racial athletic advantage exists. \* It’s, “\*If \*such an advantage exists, what would be bad about it, or bad about acknowledging it?” ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/43 "2016-02-23T15:19:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Where is their 100.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% with triple blind and repeatable studies? How do we know it’s not the amount of selenium in the soils these people live near? How do we know it’s not the phase of the moon they were conceived under? Although you are poking fun at these types of considerations, the field of behavior genetics has shown how fairly subtle variations in the lab can lead to dramatic changes observed in the differences in behavior patterns between sets of genetically uniform mouse strains. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/44 "2016-02-23T15:35:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Once again, guys, this thread isn’t about \*whether a racial athletic advantage exists. > \* > > It’s, “\*If \*such an advantage exists, what would be bad about it, or bad about acknowledging it?” If you define race as it’s used in the West today then it would be bad because it would be bad science. Races (as we use the term commonly) have little useful basis in biology so any policy or ideas based on them would be faulty. Now, if you have a different definition of race that maps to actual biology then we can discuss your hypothetical in a different light. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/45 "2016-02-23T15:45:16Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Although you are poking fun at these types of considerations, the field of behavior genetics has shown how fairly subtle variations in the lab can lead to dramatic changes observed in the differences in behavior patterns between sets of genetically uniform mouse strains. I’ve never said environment plays no or even a minority role. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/46 "2016-02-23T16:01:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Once again, guys, this thread isn’t about \*whether a racial athletic advantage exists. > \* > > It’s, “\*If \*such an advantage exists, what would be bad about it, or bad about acknowledging it?” And I tried to answer that. The short version is there’s virtually no utility in making such an observation, and the only reason people want to point out such things is because deep down they want to generalize and categorize. But as a society we’ve agreed that prejudice is a bad thing. If you were to say to me “It would seem that people with recent ancestry from certain parts of East Africa have a higher prevalence of some gene or genes that aid long distance running” I’d say “Yeah, looks that way”. But I’ve never had that kind of conversation. It’s always a much more broad brush generalization complete with some sinister “them and us” theme. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/47 "2016-02-23T16:04:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The thing underlying the denial is the science of biology. I try to never get involved in these discussions, because the science is so terrible on both sides. But, the idea that “race” (as defined by self identification) is related to one’s genes is pretty well established. There are multiple [GWAS](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812948/) studies that have looked at people who self identify as one race or another and then compared their entire genomes, and find, unsurprisingly, that the self identified races tend to strongly group together. I don’t want to make any inferences from this except to ask how do people square this entirely uncontroversial idea with the concept that race has no basis in biology. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/48 "2016-02-23T16:05:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’ve never said environment plays no or even a minority role. I know that. I certainly do not believe that your argument for the role genetics in participation patterns in athletics is bad. It’s the most convincing, especially so when compared to the cartoon depictions of science you see in this and all these other race threads. The point was that even under the controlled conditions of a lab, environments are not equal and what makes environments unequal, practically speaking, is often surprising. Maybe not so surprising in hindsight, but surprising at the time of discovery. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/49 "2016-02-23T16:08:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Once again, guys, this thread isn’t about \*whether a racial athletic advantage exists. > \* > > It’s, “\*If \*such an advantage exists, what would be bad about it, or bad about acknowledging it?” Because to do this you have to acknowledge, that race exists and differences between races exist. If differences between races exist that means that different races might have different outcomes in life that might not be explainable by discrimination. That makes it harder to sue for discrimination. Thus people who are invested in the discrimination explains all differences narrative, have to either pretend that race does not exist or that there are no differences. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/50 "2016-02-23T16:12:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > scientasters What is a “scientasters”? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/51 "2016-02-23T16:29:48Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > What is a “scientasters”? > [@](#): > > _scientaster_ > Pronunciation: /ˌsʌɪənˈtastə/ /ˈsʌɪəntastə/ > Entry from British & World English dictionary > > Now rare > Definition of \*scientaster \*in English: > noun > > An inadequate or inferior scientist; a person with a limited or superficial understanding of science. > > Origin > Late 19th cent. From _scient_- + -_aster_, after poetaster. I have lost a tiny bit of ignorance today, Praise Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/52 "2016-02-23T18:34:52Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Cite for the claim that anybody at all sees as “unacceptable” the mere possibility that there _ **COULD** _ be genetic differences for intelligence and personality traits across races? Because I’ve never heard of anybody saying that such a concept is _prima facie_ unacceptable. While I personally believe there is no evidence at all for racial differences in intelligence, I respectfully submit to you that you’d have to have your head buried very, very deep in the sand to think there isn’t a remarkably strong moral aversion to even raising the issue in polite society. The concept IS unacceptable for discussion to most people. In truth, much the same as true of racial athletic advantage. Raising the issue is distasteful. It’s the sort of thing one expects of racists, and so even those who are not racist usually avoid the issue. Whether or not some people enjoy racial advantages in sport I really don’t know. There are too many conflating factors. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/53 "2016-02-23T18:40:51Z")
If black athletes \*did \*have a genetic advantage, would that unfairly cheapen or dismiss their accomplishments? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/54 "2016-02-23T19:02:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If black athletes \*did \*have a genetic advantage, would that unfairly cheapen or dismiss their accomplishments? There’s no need to go hypothetical, we have real world examples of this. The Tibetan Sherpa population have [physiological differences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_adaptation_in_humans) from the rest of the human population that allow them to operate much better at high altitude. Does that unfairly cheapen or dismiss their accomplishments in high altitude mountaineering? No non-Sherpa will ever be able to accomplish what the best Sherpa mountaineers can do. BTW, this is an example of why you should concentrate on populations rather than races. “Black” covers a huge variety of populations which have diverse and far ranging attributes. Do Dinkas and Pygmys have the same genetic advantage to play basketball? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/55 "2016-02-23T20:10:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > While I personally believe there is no evidence at all for racial differences in intelligence, I respectfully submit to you that you’d have to have your head buried very, very deep in the sand to think there isn’t a remarkably strong moral aversion to even raising the issue in polite society. The concept IS unacceptable for discussion to most people. I’m not convinced, and so far nobody’s proffered any evidence, that there is any significant aversion (moral or otherwise) to **responsible scientific study** of genetic contributions to human intelligence. Sure, a lot of people are strongly averse to hearing or discussing the kind of pseudoscientific blather that “race realists” frequently try to pass off as scientific fact. But you can hardly blame them for that; it’s not a matter of social “acceptability” but of basic intellectual honesty. The whole field of neurogenetics research on human intelligence, as I’ve noted, is still in the early stages of trying to figure out even what “intelligence genes” are or how the hell they work. The attempts of ignorant “race realists” to seize on bits of this exploratory research to make their unsupported speculations about innate racial-group differences look superficially “scientific” are not worthy of serious attention from anybody. Show me somebody who thinks it’s “unacceptable” even to raise the issue of **genuine scientific findings** on the subject of genetic bases of human intelligence, and I’ll join you in condemning that person’s narrow-mindedness. But what I suspect you’re seeing is just a bunch of people who think it’s unacceptable to discuss typical “race realist” bullshit as though it were scientific fact. [QUOTE=RickJay] Whether or not some people enjoy racial advantages in sport I really don’t know. [/QUOTE] Manfully acknowledged. And neither does anybody else, so far. That’s not to say it’s intrinsically impossible to determine potential links between specific genetic heritage and specific physical traits that may conduce to high levels of athletic performance in certain sports, as suggested by some of the previously-cited targeted studies of the genomes of athletes from particular distinct genetic population groups (ETA: and also **Telemark** ’s example of high-altitude adaptation among Tibetans, Quechua Andeans, etc.). (Which, by the way, I haven’t seen anybody exhibiting any “aversion” to, or complaining that their investigations are in any way “unacceptable”.) But **we’re still a long, long, long, long, long way from being able to responsibly extrapolate any information from such specific studies to immensely complicated physico-sociocultural questions such as why certain broadly defined racial categories in a multiracial society tend to be disproportionately represented in certain sports at a certain historical moment.** There is nothing squeamish or “PC” about being averse to the kind of ignorant and irresponsible conclusion-jumping that “race realists” try to pull on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/56 "2016-02-23T20:23:18Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > There’s no need to go hypothetical, we have real world examples of this. The Tibetan Sherpa population have [physiological differences](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_adaptation_in_humans) from the rest of the human population that allow them to operate much better at high altitude. Does that unfairly cheapen or dismiss their accomplishments in high altitude mountaineering? No non-Sherpa will ever be able to accomplish what the best Sherpa mountaineers can do. Your wikipedia article shows that increased frequencies of certain alleles of the genes _EPAS1_, _EGLN1_, and _PPARA_ are the genetic basis for Sherpas’ and Tibetans’ adaption to high altitudes. Ignoring the fact that Tibetans in general can probably do what Sherpas can do, let’s go on. It also says that the population known as Han Chinese have alleles of these genes in their population, but at a much lower frequency. I think there are 100s of millions of Han Chinese. Even if only a small percent are homozygous or heterozygous for these alleles, don’t you think it stands to reason that we can find enough Han Chinese who can adapt to the mountains like the Sherpa? It says that Andeans also seem to have a high concentration of other alleles of the _EGLN1_ gene and this is believed to confer their advantage even though they do not show the same patterns of hemoglobin regulation exhibited by Tibetans. Do you think the people most closely related to these tribes of Andeans have alleles of these genes present at some decently high frequency in their populations? Why should I take this example of adaptation to an extreme environment as evidence for a genetic basis to the dominance of this or that arbitrarily defined social group in particular positions in professional team sports? Draw me all the links because I think this is apples and oranges. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/57 "2016-02-23T20:28:50Z")
Just to follow up with a few more examples of such ignorant conclusion-jumping: > [@octopus](#): > > And yet these racist rags are reporting on how genes influence voting! > > [Genes Help Shape Our Political Views, New Research Shows (VIDEO) | HuffPost Impact](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4455391.html) > [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/op...iefs.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/op...iefs.html?_r=0) Again, these are **empirical** studies of heritability of psychological traits (in this case, certain aspects of political attitudes) **among very closely related individuals**. **Nobody disagrees** that there is strong empirical evidence for such heritability. But that doesn’t tell us jack-shit about the genetic **mechanisms** involved and to what extent their effects may be detectable at the level of **population** , much less **racial group**. > [@octopus](#): > > And this racist organization is saying there is a genetic component to psychopathy. > [The psycho gene - PMC](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933872/) Again, these are **empirical** studies of heritability of mental illness (in this case, psychopathy) **among very closely related individuals**. **Nobody disagrees** that there is strong empirical evidence for such heritability. But that doesn’t tell us jack-shit about the genetic **mechanisms** involved and to what extent their effects may be detectable at the level of **population** , much less **racial group**. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/58 "2016-02-23T20:47:16Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > In some other thread discussions there were people who vehemently rejected the notion that black athletes had a genetic advantage in speed, agility, etc. when it came to explaining why wide receivers, defensive backs or other such speed positions in certain sports tended to be African-American. > > Now, whether black people have a genetic advantage in Olympic sprinting or NBA basketball, etc. isn’t the point of this thread - maybe they do, maybe they don’t. That’s a scientific discussion. But my question is - _suppose that they indeed did_, and the reason that black players dominate positions such as NFL wide receiver and cornerback is indeed because of this natural advantage - _what would be so bad about that?_ > > Why is it bad if one race does indeed have a genetic advantage in agility or speed? Would it somehow be racist for that to be the case? Or is it more that it’s racist to \*say \*that race is the reason for speed advantage - in other words, it’s more the \*speech \*that is the issue than it is the science that is the issue? It wouldn’t be wrong to ascribe a difference to genetics as long as there was actual evidence to back up the claim. The problem is that some people jump to genetics as the first explanation before any facts are gathered. The reason this leaping to genetics is associated with racism is because it’s essentially boils down to _“Those people are different from us. And they always will be. You can’t change their nature.”_ Another problem is that ascribing a good trait to genetics diminishes that trait. It’s arguing that the reason blacks are better athletes isn’t because they practice more - it’s because they have a sports gene. And the reason Asians and Jews do better in school isn’t because they study harder - it’s because they have a smart gene. The implication is that white people earn their successes and deserve credit for them. But other races are just exploiting an unfair advantage. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/59 "2016-02-23T20:58:35Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > IBut, the idea that “race” (as defined by self identification) is related to one’s genes is pretty well established. There are multiple [GWAS](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812948/) studies that have looked at people who self identify as one race or another and then compared their entire genomes, and find, unsurprisingly, that the self identified races tend to strongly group together. You understand that’s not the same thing as saying that race is a valid biological grouping, right? That self-identified groupings can map to genetic groupings is not disputed. That those groups are coherent and discrete biological entities is. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836/60 "2016-02-23T21:26:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You understand that’s not the same thing as saying that race is a valid biological grouping, right? That self-identified groupings can map to genetic groupings is not disputed. That those groups are coherent and discrete biological entities is. How are you defining groupings vs discrete biological entities here? I’m not understanding how you are defining these terms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-one-race-is-faster-more-athletic-stronger-in-sports-whats-bad/746836.md?page=4)