If one race is faster, more athletic, stronger in sports - what's bad?

It is very very crude. So crude that it is pretty much useless in this modern age of diverse populations and plentiful information. If I’m alerting my friend to look for a special disease that I’ve only noticed in bushmen, I’m not going to say “black people”, especially if he works in a country as diverse as the United States. Just like I wouldn’t tell someone to look out for Tay Sachs showing up in white people. It just doesn’t make sense to do this. It’s a very inefficient way of screening patients to use such broad terms.

This conversation reminds me of the time I spent in Miami. Prior to that experience, “black American” connoted something specific to me. An AAVE-fluent person descended from American slaves , possessing a European surname. But in Miami, that’s not the only kind of black American. You’ve got the brown-skinned folks who are immigrants from the Caribbean and their offspring. You’ve got the brown-skinned folks from Latin American countries and their offspring. Then there are the brown-skilled folks straight outta Africa and their offspring. These groups are quite distinct from one another and their members do not necessarily want to be lumped together all willy-nilly and crazy-like.

A doctor working in Miami who only sees the “blackness” of his or her patient is likely to overlook a lot of useful information. It wouldn’t do a Miami doctor any good to rely on race as a patient descriptor. They need to be encouraged to see past race labels completely, since even the definition of “white” varies so much when there are a gazillion different nationalities/ethnicities crammed into one metropolitan area. Maybe a doctor working in rural Appalachia can afford to be less conscientious. But they are also a whole lot less likely to need to use race to mine their patient database.

So sorry, I still don’t understand why race should be used at all in medicine.

I’m not saying it should. I’m not endorsing a class at medical school teaching race-is-step-one-in-identifying-genetic-groups.

I’m just objecting to an overly absolute position in the opposite direction. “Never” and “nothing” and “totally without meaning” as opposed to “rarely” and “only vaguely related to” and “only useful when no more precise information is available” so forth.

But it is. Cite:

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/38/1/150.full

So this:

is actually fairly accurate.

No, it totally fucking won’t. Khoisan aren’t “black people”.

You do realize “Asian-American” is a group that includes people from more than one socially-defined race, right? It’s not a biological group, is my point.

I still feel this (and similar past discussions) are missing the point somewhat.

Most people know very little about genetics, so when two people are having the discussion of “Why can’t we talk about how blacks are better runners?” and the other person is saying “Best not to talk about that”, neither person is motivated by the science.

Now, we might well say that the “Best not to talk about that” person is motivated by political correctness, and just sees race as a sore subject. And I think that’s largely true.

Nevertheless I would tend to side with that person, as the “Why can’t we talk about how blacks are better runners?” person will usually be motivated deep down (or not so deep) by a desire to generalize and categorize.
An accurate statement about runners might refer to average differences between populations…but that kind of statement has no practical value to the “man on the street”.
Instead, what such people want is justification for “Blacks are X, whites are Y”.

I’ll say they’re the best runners right now. They used to be the best boxers.

Evidence for this claim?

How deep does your knowledge of genetics need to be to spot that this question as bullshit?

When I hear the question “Why can’t we talk about how Australian Aborigines, Andaman Islanders and Sri Lankan Tamils are better runners” I know the question is horeseshit without even considering genetics.

Th question is patent nonsense on it’s face. No deep knowledge of genetics is required. Anybody with a basic knowledge of sports will tell you that an assumption that “Black people” as a group are better runner is a load of dingo’s kidneys.

Evidence for this claim?

Because when I say “better not to talk about it” I mean “You really shouldn’t talk about subjects on which you are deeply ignorant, as you clearly are on this subject”.

Anybody claiming that a group that includes Andaman Islanders and Sri Lanakans are better runners than any other group doesn’t know shit from chocolate and really shouldn’t be talking about baking cookies.

I encourage anybody who wants to categorise. I’m an ecologist/botanist. Most of my job is to categorise and generalise. Being motivated by a desire to categorise and generalise is a good thing.

What is not a good thing is categorising and generalising incorrectly. Categorising all men as rapists is not a good thing. Generalising that all fruits are edible is not a good thing. Categorising blacks as a monophyletic group is not a good thing. Generalising that Blacks are good a running is not a good thing.

Those are all Bad Things because they are wrong and lead to bad choices.

Absolutely wrong. It is the only statment that has value to the man in the street. And the statement would read" “On average, the group “Blacks”, which includes subgroups such as Andaman Islanders, Sri Lankans and Austrlaian Aboriginals as over 30% of its membership, is on average no faster than any other similarly diverse group”.

What people want doesn’t define value. A cancer patient wants to be told “You don’t have cancer any more”. That doesn’t mean that the statement " You still have cancer" has no value to that patient. Quite the opposite.

The only statement that has any value to the man on the street is a true one. An ignorant and erroneous statement doesn’t become valuable simply because that is what they want to hear to justify something.

Really? Andaman Islanders and Sri Lankan’s are the best runners right now?

Just because crows are black birds, that does not mean that black birds are crows.

The best runners right now are black. That is not remotely similar to your claim that blacks are the best runners right now.

Your way’s better then. That’s the reason I post here, to learn.

Blake, I’ll give a point-by-point response if necessary but the big picture is: I think you’ve mis-parsed my post. I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said (except I think some of your statements are too absolute). Perhaps you thought I was on a different side of the debate to the one I’m on?
I’m saying it’s incorrect to just say “Blacks are better runners”, but that a subset of people want to make such statements because they want to discriminate. I’m also saying statements about populations may be correct, but that’s not what such bigots are interested in, and not the reason why threads like this are so common.

Blake: Why do you call Sri Lankans black? They’re from the sub-continent. They don’t look black either.

My main disagreement was your claim that you need a deep knowledge of genetics to understand that Andaman Islanders are not the best runners in the world, and that anybody calling bullshit on that claim is just being PC because they lack the knowledge of genetics to understand why it is bullshit.

That is the claim that you made, and it’s not true. People call bullshit on that claim because it is obviously bullshit to anyone who knows a anything about sports or anthropology.

Of course at least two statements made about populations in the entire history of the world have been correct. The statement “blacks are better runners” is not correct and anybody with *any *knowledge of science can see that instantly.

Really?

These people are not Black? Or these people? Or these people? Or these people?

Do please tell us about this Black Phenotype that excludes those typical Sri Lankan phenotypes but includes Ernie Dingo, Nelson Mandela, Tiger Woods and Haile Salassie?

I wait with bated breath.

Or maybe none of those famous Black people are black either? They think they are, and everyone who has ever written about them thinks they are Black. But maybe they aren’t Black because they can’t be distinguished from typical Sri Lankans, who apparently aren’t Black.

You can’t say it, because if a race has an advantage in one area, another race might have an advantage in another area.

Some of those people are black. Some are Black. Some are neither.

See, to me, some look “Black.” Some look Indian. Not the same thing to me.

Funny…I don’t recall making such a claim.

I dispute that.
People see that many of the top sprinters have dark skin, even those representing majority white countries, and just make a sweeping statement. It’s very natural to jump to such a simplistic conclusion. Note: I’m not saying right, I’m saying easy.
The fact that the labels “Black”, “Asian”, “White” etc exist is testament to the fact that humans have this habit of making overly broad groupings, and believe there are at least some non-tautological statements you can make about such groups.

“Socially-defined” race? Asian and Asian-Americanare also socially-defined “races.” But your rebuttal isn’t relevant. Monstro claimed that Asian isn’t useful shorthand medically speaking. She’s wrong…

“Asian” is one of the ones i mean, “Asian-American” is some nebulous bureaucratic catch-all category made up for census-taking, which doesn’t map 1-1 onto “Asian” (as it’s understood by those people who think race is a valid biological concept)

Of course it is - the article you quote treats Asian-American as though it’s synonymous with the Asians of the articles it references, when that isn’t the case. it’s like people treating African-Americans as though they were a representative sample of Africans, when they are in fact a filtered and altered grouping.

“Asian” and “Asian American”, the social groupings, are no doubt useful. That’s all that article shows.