# if only firefighters carried guns **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021 "2012-12-24T16:37:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/261 "2012-12-31T14:17:05Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Taking a stance against something you think is wrong isn’t a single submit/revolt decision; there’s a broad spectrum of reactions and everyone’s thresholds will differ. If you think something ought to be changed, it’s a question of what strategy you think has the best chance of succeeding. It’s not hypocritical to say that one will accept something wrong for the time being and try more conventional methods than to immediately jump to a quixotic and doomed revolt. > > What would civil disobedience look like? In addition to ceaseless efforts to continue working within the system, it would indeed include hiding one’s now-illegal guns. It might include clandestine efforts to secure a supply of banned guns by smuggling, illicit manufacture, or theft. It might include being a scofflaw and simply refusing to go along with a ban, even if it meant risking prison, if you thought your stand would add one more straw to the camel’s back. > > What would it take for me to take up arms? Like I said above, everyone’s thresholds will differ. I guess the tipping point is when you think no lesser method can work; when you feel that you (and a large abiding number of other people who agree with you) have been locked out of any further discussion on the issue. When revolt appears to be the least lousy option left to you. It depends on how much faith you have in our institutions. A radical few have no faith at all, some are deeply skeptical, many are doubtful. > > If you’re soliciting my personal tipping point on armed revolt, it would be something like this: when a ban is passed, when after some years it becomes apparent that the ban didn’t achieve the shining results the control crowd hoped for, when more and more desperate and brutal measures are resorted to in a futile effort to make it work, and yet the system keeps the ban locked into place, impervious to public opinion and sustained by a minority who thwart all reform; in short, when I’m being made a victim for no useful purpose- then it would be time. Yep-more than enough time for most people to get over their outrage and move on to some other outrage. ---
**Author:** ![Docta\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Docta\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Docta_G)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/262 "2012-12-31T23:18:37Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Aw, does the internet tough guy feel all warm and prickly inside calling random strangers names? I think that says a lot more about you than it does about me. Furthermore, which part of my previous reply did you not read correctly? I DO NOT CARRY MY GUN AROUND. Even when I bring it to work on rare occasions (maybe once a month?) I don’t carry it. I don’t even own a holster I already addressed the moronic notion you espoused in your own words. I will say it again: it is moronic notion, such as one would expect of a real-life pussy/paranoiac. The quotation/notion is yours, whether you abide by it in practice or not. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/263 "2013-01-01T03:31:43Z")
I just wondered something. What it would have been like if this conversation took place a year ago or so, and George Zimmerman was a Doper participant. If I was questioning him like I was with **Fois** , he likely would have responded differently, he might very well have asserted that he could, indeed, detect suspicious behavior and unsavory, potentially dangerous characters. Happily, \*\*Fois \*\*makes no such claims, and recognizes the limitations as I expect a reasonable person would. My opinion of Mr Zimmerman is much, much less. If it were in my power, I would have denied Mr Z any legal right to be in the presence of a gun, much less carry one. Conversely, I don’t think I’d have too much worry about **Fois**. But that’s the problem, isn’t it? How do I craft a law with objective criteria so a junior vigilante like Z. doesn’t get a gun but **Fois** can have one. Not that I think its a good idea, I’d likely try to talk him out of it, but it wouldn’t worry me all that much. Trouble is, there is no such objective criteria, if I’m going to keep Z from a gun, by way of the law, then **Fois** would likely be equally forbidden to have a weapon as would Z. And that is unjust. Which leads me to my preaching part. We cannot accomplish anything useful by way of law. We must change ourselves, our culture, less cowboy, more Amish. Its a long, slow, painful slog, and shit like what has happened will happen again. And again. If anyone can show me a plan that is both just and effective and doesn’t require the long and painful slog to change, I’m all ears. Whip it on me. Let it be noted, as well, that i have no objection to limiting the sale and distribution of weapons with no reasonable civilian use, like full auto type weapons and absurd ammunition capacities. I just don’t think they get us anywhere near where we need to go. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/264 "2013-01-05T01:01:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It might be noted that in Sunnyvale, CA (often cited as one of the best run cities around here) every cop is also a firefighter, and vice versa. [From their website:](http://sunnyvale.ca.gov/Departments/PublicSafety/DPSDivisions/Fire.aspx) Fresno Airports Crash Fire Rescue is the same way, most of the time they are on Police duty. If they get a call for an aircraft declaring an emergency they run back to the station and roll out in the crash trucks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/265 "2013-01-05T01:51:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We must change ourselves, our culture, less cowboy, more Amish. Well, they’ve **both** got shit on their boots, that’s a start . . . ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/266 "2013-01-05T01:53:22Z")
But one would presume they are not carrying firearms after they’ve donned their firefighting gear. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/267 "2014-09-17T19:18:00Z")
" A New York woman was sentenced to eight years in federal prison Wednesday for supplying guns to a former neighbor who used them to kill his sister and two firefighters in a Christmas Eve ambush that also caused seven homes to burn to the ground." [http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Woman-faces-sentencing-for-buying-killer-his-guns-5760665.php](http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Woman-faces-sentencing-for-buying-killer-his-guns-5760665.php)? Is this a reasonable sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/268 "2014-09-17T19:47:49Z")
Seems excessive to me. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/269 "2014-09-17T21:38:14Z")
I don’t find the sentence excessive, if the article is correct. She knew he was a felon and not allowed to purchase a gun. She knowingly helped him purchase guns, which he then used to kill himself and three other people. At the time of the straw purchase, she was a college student - literate enough to understand perfectly well that she was lying about the ultimate ownership of those guns. If she’d handed her car keys to someone who was drunk, and the drunk drove away and killed three people, would you think that an eight year sentence was reasonable? ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/270 "2014-09-17T21:55:10Z")
I don’t think car keys are good analogy. Cars are not designed for killing; that’s just often an unfortunate side effect. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/271 "2014-09-17T22:26:06Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > I don’t think car keys are good analogy. Cars are not designed for killing; that’s just often an unfortunate side effect. True, they’re not designed for killing, but they’re pretty good at doing so. I make the analogy because both automobiles and guns can be useful tools if used in a responsible manner, but that either can cause massive harm if used irresponsibly. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/272 "2014-09-22T17:07:37Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Gun rights advocates don’t want to admit GUNS ARE the problem. Sigh. Guns are not the problem. Guns never have been the problem. People who want to kill other people are the problem, and they will use any means at hand to accomplish their desire. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/273 "2014-09-22T17:43:08Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Sigh. Guns are not the problem. Guns never have been the problem. > > People who want to kill other people are the problem, and they will use any means at hand to accomplish their desire. So if there were two alternate universes which reflected the United States in every single respect – economics, justice system, educational system, etc – except in one of those universes, people could only be armed with sticks and rocks; and in the other, people had psionic devices that could murder people with a mere thought. Is it your contention that the murder rate in both these Americas would be exactly the same, because “people who want to kill other people are the problem,” as opposed to the ease by which people can carry out their evil plans? Furthermore, do you suppose that in the alternate America with the psionic mind-kill devices, there will be people who loudly complain that people should stop demonizing the device that allows people to kill each other simply by thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/274 "2014-09-22T19:05:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So if there were two alternate universes which reflected the United States in every single respect – economics, justice system, educational system, etc – except in one of those universes, people could only be armed with sticks and rocks; and in the other, people had psionic devices that could murder people with a mere thought. > > Is it your contention that the murder rate in both these Americas would be exactly the same, because “people who want to kill other people are the problem,” as opposed to the ease by which people can carry out their evil plans? > > Furthermore, do you suppose that in the alternate America with the psionic mind-kill devices, there will be people who loudly complain that people should stop demonizing the device that allows people to kill each other simply by thinking? What part of this: “People who want to kill other people are the problem, and they will use any means at hand to accomplish their desire” did you have difficulty understanding? It doesn’t matter what tools are available, they will be used. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/275 "2014-09-22T19:08:45Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > What part of this: “People who want to kill other people are the problem, and they will use any means at hand to accomplish their desire” did you have difficulty understanding? It doesn’t matter what tools are available, they will be used. And all tools do all jobs equally well, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/276 "2014-09-22T19:24:31Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > It doesn’t matter what tools are available, they will be used. So, what is it about being American that causes them to want to kill more than Canadians? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/277 "2014-09-22T20:20:26Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > What part of this: “People who want to kill other people are the problem, and they will use any means at hand to accomplish their desire” did you have difficulty understanding? The part I’m not understanding is how someone can actually believe that there is no connection whatsoever between the ease of killing people and the rate at which people are killed. It’s like saying the number of traffic deaths would not increase if there were a large, sharp metal spike placed on every steering wheel of every car; because traffic deaths are caused by people who aren’t good drivers. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/278 "2014-09-22T20:37:39Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > " A New York woman was sentenced to eight years in federal prison Wednesday for supplying guns to a former neighbor who used them to kill his sister and two firefighters in a Christmas Eve ambush that also caused seven homes to burn to the ground." > [http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Woman-faces-sentencing-for-buying-killer-his-guns-5760665.php](http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Woman-faces-sentencing-for-buying-killer-his-guns-5760665.php)? > > Is this a reasonable sentence? We need more sentences like this and they need to be widely covered in the media. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/279 "2014-09-22T20:43:24Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > So, what is it about being American that causes them to want to kill more than Canadians? Why is it about being American that causes us to rape about 15 times more frequently than Canadians? Probably the guns, right? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/280 "2014-09-23T04:59:28Z")
Rape statistics are notoriously unreliable. In Canada, about 6% of sexual assualts are reported to police. In the US it’s about 16%. Both figures are from the early 1990s - but you can see a 2.5x differential right there. Putting it another way, Sweden’s reported rape statistics are 66 times higher than both the United Arab Emerites and Serbia. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Furthermore, do you suppose that in the alternate America with the psionic mind-kill devices, there will be people who loudly complain that people should stop demonizing the device that allows people to kill each other simply by thinking? Psionic mind-kill devices don’t kill people. People kill people. > [@Ravenman](#): > > It’s like saying the number of traffic deaths would not increase if there were a large, sharp metal spike placed on every steering wheel of every car; because traffic deaths are caused by people who aren’t good drivers. Large spikes place on steering wheels don’t kill people. Careless drivers kill people. ETA: [Punji stick traps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punji_stick) don’t hurt anybody. People who don’t watch where they’re going hurt themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021.md?page=13)