# if only firefighters carried guns **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 24, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021 "2012-12-24T16:37:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/81 "2012-12-25T04:34:01Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > [Oh, hai - if only convicted murderers weren’t set free after 17 years, and oh by the way he can’t have legally owned those guns anyway.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/24/william-spengler-identified-webster-shooter_n_2360280.html?1356379075) > > See, thing is - this guy should have been executed years ago - or not let out of prison at all. But no, he got out, got guns, and decided to engage in murder again. But I’m certain he was completely mentally stable, and it was the soothing voices of the blue-steel beasties whispering to him at night that really made him do it. > > So let’s jump on the “no moar gunz!!1111!” bandwagon again since it’s trendy to do so lately, but spend exactly zero words on the person who actually did the shooting. > > Typical. > > As people are so fond of pointing out, the U.S. is only about 5% of the world’s population or something like that - so I’d say if you’re so damn scared of all of these guns levitating around and shooting themselves at people, you go somewhere that already has taken care of the problem. i hate it when people say this (“just get out then”). Guess what. i was born here too and my voice and opinion count just as much. I am anti-gun because i consider the lives of my friends, family, and fellow citizens more important tham your precious toys. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/82 "2012-12-25T05:58:03Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Bullshit. The you can quote where I call them “layabouts”, right? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/83 "2012-12-25T06:31:08Z")
> [@Werekoala](#): > > The laws are not preposterously lax, but they only apply to people who abide by them. **No** laws only apply to people who abide by them. As you know. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/84 "2012-12-25T10:34:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The you can quote where I call them “layabouts”, right? Okay, so you implied it with the comment about “plenty of time” when, in fact, firefighters are generally occupied. You know, what with training to fight fires. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/85 "2012-12-25T12:22:44Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Is it your contention that the US has more mentally ill people than all the other countries in the world, and that’s why they have less gun violence? Or are you possibly bemoaning the fact that the US has poorer healthcare options for mentally ill people than other civilized countries? I think that there is an unusually high percentage of the US population that is whipped up into a hyper-paranoid state through the News and Internet because they self-select into a group of people who are exposed to almost a continuous stream of talk about how ‘we must take our country back’, ‘the US is being taken over by socialism’, ‘our rights will be handed over to the UN’… Without this sort of element (the 15-20% of the population who are soaking it up and the publishers that are looking for clicks and enjoying their notoriety) I believe that things like an elected Sheriff declaring the need for the budget to protect from invading UN forces would have been laughed from public service and only made headlines as a bat-sh\*t crazy loon who is now in the care of professionals. Instead, the man still holds his job and people openly applauded his bravery in declaring that he fully intended to stand up to his imaginary invading forces. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/86 "2012-12-25T13:36:42Z")
I was awakened around 2 am by the sound of gunfire outside. Our neighborhood is bordered on two sides by slummy apartment complexes and is adjacent a small vacant wooded lot; we’re accustomed to the odd pistol crack early in the morning—sometimes followed eventually by police sirens—but this time the firing went on for a good ten minutes including the brief pauses to reload. Someone anxious to try out his new gift, I gathered, who couldn’t wait for the firing range (ha!) or at least until they were away from a densely populated area. Although the continuous noise was annoying and made me worry about stray bullets coming through our bedroom window, in a way I was comforted to know that it was obviously someone doing some ersatz target shooting, unlike the isolated _rat-tat-tats_ that sound like (and from subsequent news reports, often turn out to be) the sound of someone being shot to death nearby. Merry Christmas, everyone! ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/87 "2012-12-25T13:48:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Meh. Firefighters can have guns on their trucks if need be. Wouldn’t bother me. They’ve got plenty of time to practice. My Christmas wish is for you to admit you didn’t think before you posted this. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/88 "2012-12-25T13:56:36Z")
The man beat his grandmother to death with a hammer. He shouldn’t have had access to _any_ weapon, not just firearms: he should have been locked up until the day he died, unless the balance of evidence somehow shifted in his favour. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/89 "2012-12-25T14:06:19Z")
Criminals, sociopaths and psychotics already have all the guns they need. More guns literally couldn’t make things any worse- maybe it really is worth a try. You never hear of any of these shooters deciding to shoot up a police station; probably because they might get one, two or maybe if they’re lucky three cops before being turned into swiss cheese. Maybe if it wasn’t a given that any random crowd of people are probably helpless fish in a barrel, these cowards wouldn’t decide to go people hunting. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/90 "2012-12-25T14:11:51Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Okay, so you implied it with the comment about “plenty of time” when, in fact, firefighters are generally occupied. You know, what with training to fight fires. Pshaw. It takes “very little time” at a range every week to turn any random person into a cooly deadly marksman. That NRA training is so effective that, with almost no effort, an average person will be able to neutralize a threat in a crowded mall, church service, grade school, or active fire. And anyway, firefighting mostly invloves cooking chili and playing with the Dalmatian. And the average fire truck has plenty of room for equipment unrelated to firefighting. Why, when I was a firefighter, I often used to look around the vehicles and wonder, “Why are there so many empty compartments on this truck? All this unused space could be filled with equipment we might need to put out a fire or provide life saving care. Or, guns.” ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/91 "2012-12-25T14:25:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > \<…\>it seems highly unlikely that they’d be replaced by some sort of illicit gun factories. [Illegal gun factories thrive in the Philippines.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/29/us-philippines-guns-idUSBRE86S00S20120729) > [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Murder is illegal but people still kill. Therefore we should decriminalize murder, amirite? We shouldn’t think we can stop a behavior by eliminating enabling objects. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/92 "2012-12-25T14:35:38Z")
Around here, whenever a firetruck rolls on an emergency, there’s always a police car slightly ahead of or closely behind it. I wonder if that wasn’t the case here? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/93 "2012-12-25T15:05:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Okay, so you implied it with the comment about “plenty of time” when, in fact, firefighters are generally occupied. You know, what with training to fight fires. No, you (incorrectly) _inferred_ it from what I said. Perhaps you could find a linguist who could explain what the difference between those two words is. 😉 But it’s not really central to my disagreement with the OP anyway, so if you want to debate it, open a GD thread. I outlined my disagreement in detail above. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/94 "2012-12-25T15:25:29Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > Pshaw. It takes “very little time” at a range every week to turn any random person into a cooly deadly marksman. That NRA training is so effective that, with almost no effort, an average person will be able to neutralize a threat in a crowded mall, church service, grade school, or active fire. Head shots to all bad guys every time. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/95 "2012-12-25T15:34:09Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Just for the folks who haven’t looked at the link, > > > [@bot3](#): > > > > … Today’s youth have no respect for convention, law or order. … > > > [@](#): > > > > … The shooter has been identified as William Spengler, 62, … > > Fuckin’ kids these days with their hippy hoppy music and their FaceTube and their arthritis ointment. :rolleyes: > > CMC I hear Mr. Spengler’s favorite rapper is Jay Zzzzz… ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/96 "2012-12-25T15:38:49Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Amirite? Because that would be the gun rights stance. How about we have armed guards or police paid to go out on every fire call? Makes just about as much sense as doing it in schools. Gun rights advocates don’t want to admit GUNS ARE the problem. Good luck trying to convince the families of these firefighters that their loved ones death is just the price one pays for the right to own guns. Fcuk that. > Story here > [HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/12/24/firefighters-shot-webster-fire_n_2358822.html?1356359675&ncid=mobile1&prefTab=Today) The town in question had a volunteer force. Same as my town. Police are always dispatched to fire calls. For one, with a volunteer force we always get there long before they do. And also for crowd and traffic control. I am not sure what happened in tgis particular case. But I’m not sure where you got the idea that police are not routinely sent on fire calls. > [@April\_R](#): > > Well, I guess I am an aberration then, because that sounds like crazy talk to me. > > And I hardly think [49% in support of gun rights and 45% for gun control](http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/transparency.jpeg) points to a nation that thinks guns are a fundamental right, because IMO guns aren’t a right they are a luxury which we are seeing more and more we can’t afford at the cost of innocent lives. Like everyone you are entitled to your opinion. The constitution disagrees. Get a 2/3 majority and you can get that changed. > [@Monty](#): > > This, folks, is what’s known as an ignorant comment. Firefighers don’t have plenty of time to practice shooting firearms. They’re already practicing firefighting. That’s a tad more important to their function than some macho/rambo stunt to appease those who think firefighters are layabouts. I know you want to fool the civilians but come on. Full time firefighters spend most of their 24 hour shifts eating, sleeping or working out. Volunteers of course have their full time jobs. No fire department spends all its down time training for fires. It’s nice for my image to have everyone think that all police are doing ninja training some we can take on 5 guys like Jack Reacher. But we know that’s bullshit too. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/97 "2012-12-25T15:45:25Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > My Christmas wish is for you to admit you didn’t think before you posted this. Well, he’s defending the concept for some odd reason. For fun, though, let’s take a gander at [the daily “routine” for firefighters in Napa](http://www.cityofnapa.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=396). > [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, you (incorrectly) _inferred_ it from what I said. Perhaps you could find a linguist who could explain what the difference between those two words is. 😉 Quaint. So tell me, are you wondering why your snide and obviously incorrect comment about the firefighter’s available time got the reaction it did? > [@](#): > > But it’s not really central to my disagreement with the OP anyway, so if you want to debate it, open a GD thread. I outlined my disagreement in detail above. You know, there are places where the firefighters and the police are the same folks. I used to live in such a place, a small city in California called Marina. Here’s the thing: the persons assigned a shift as firefighters were not also assigned a shift at the very same time as armed police officers. Gee, did you ever wonder why that just might be a good idea that the folks actively engaged as firefighters at the moment _not_ have weapons? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/98 "2012-12-25T15:58:21Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Quaint. So tell me, are you wondering why your snide and obviously incorrect comment about the firefighter’s available time got the reaction it did? The snideness of my remark is something that you and some others have inferred. Perhaps you think I look at firefighters as lazy “layabouts” with too much time on their hands. I’m sure some people think that. I happen to have several friends who are firefighters, and I have a lot of respect for them. But they also tell me that one challenge they have is to make sure they don’t become “layabouts”. We want firefighters to have lots of time spent not fighting fires so they can be ready to do so when needed. They need to be kept busy, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be 100% training to fight fires. > [@](#): > > You know, there are places where the firefighters and the police are the same folks. I used to live in such a place, a small city in California called Marina. Here’s the thing: the persons assigned a shift as firefighters were not also assigned a shift at the very same time as armed police officers. Gee, did you ever wonder why that just might be a good idea? I already brought this up about Sunnyvale, above. I’ve known a Sunnyvale firefighter/policeman for about 15 years, so I’m quite familiar with this. And guess what? All those firefighters are trained with weapons. My first reaction to this story was to be sorry for the families who lost two brave people who were volunteer firefighters. And to be furious that some asshole seems to have lured them into a trap to kill them. An asshole who, I learned just now, served time in prison for killing his grandmother. An asshole who could not legally purchase the guns he used because of his criminal record. The OP of this thread is nothing but: Blah, blah, blah, GUNS, blah blah blah. Sorry I didn’t have the knee-jerk reaction to see the word “guns” and fall in line with the outrage. I read the OP and thought it was a bunch of nonsense, and I explained why. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/99 "2012-12-25T16:43:23Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Criminals, sociopaths and psychotics already have all the guns they need. More guns literally couldn’t make things any worse- maybe it really is worth a try. You never hear of any of these shooters deciding to shoot up a police station; probably because they might get one, two or maybe if they’re lucky three cops before being turned into swiss cheese. Maybe if it wasn’t a given that any random crowd of people are probably helpless fish in a barrel, these cowards wouldn’t decide to go people hunting. Well there was the Fort Hood shooting (in an area where the soldiers were unarmed). There’ve been protracted shoot outs with [police officers too](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Pittsburgh_police_shooting). As for personal responsibility: can it be operationalised so that we can measure it and determine those deficient in it? Can it be taught? Would having personal responsibility prevent someone from hiring or firing based on attractiveness? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021/100 "2012-12-25T17:23:42Z")
> [@April\_R](#): > > Gun rights advocates don’t want to admit GUNS ARE the problem. That would be because guns are NOT the problem and never have been. People wanting to kill other people is the problem, and in today’s society, that’s compounded with a desire to see themselves all over the media. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-only-firefighters-carried-guns/645021.md?page=6)