If by this you’re implying that I’m American or live in America, I need no further proof that you’re not reading what I’m posting.
If I have heard that term before, I’ve managed to forget it. And I would say that slang term is rather derogatory in itself, with or without the connotation of “Jap” being offensive.
I agree with Czarcasm. It does not inherently sound any more offensive than calling someone a Brit or an Aussie or a Swede.
I’d respectfully disagree, you may remember an earlier thread which got quite heated over comparisons between the term “tranny” and “nigger.”
Miller argued(though not I should add in his role as moderator)
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15248879&postcount=115
Well, what is the most offensive word you can call a South Asian. “Paki”.
And yes, as with “tranny” there are times when it’s not used as a slur.
Obviously it would be your decision, but I would hope that it you saw a poster complain about seeing some “homo” in high heels or “Jap” in a post that was filled with anti-gay or anti-Asian stereotypes the way Truthseeker2’s was filled with anti-Muslim stereotypes you’d instruct the person not to use that term anymore.
Also, once again, you earlier said you decided not to give Truthseeker2 a warning because he’d already recieved “several moderator instructions”. I checked the thread and he hadn’t recieved any much less “several.” Similarly you earlier stated that you thought he’d apologized even though he hadn’t.
Had you accidentally assumed he’d already been warned and apologized therefore decided to give him a pass?
The above question is not meant as a trap, I’m just asking because we’re all human and we all make mistakes.
I will freely admit to being angrier than I should have been and in the second post on the thread apologized for the tone of the OP, and I’m not trying to play gotcha.
I know an American who worked in Saudi Arabia for ~7 years ~1985-1992.
He said certain professions there tended to be dominated by one particular
expat nationality. For example catering was dominated by Thai, and accounting
was dominated by Pakistanis.
At the time this acquaintance of mine commonly used the term “Paki” in the
same sentence or context with such surely innocuous terms as “Brit”. That leads
me to believe that “Paki” may have been inoffensive at that time and place,
since my acquaintance has never, not even once, used any other word which
might be considered a racial slur in the several decades I have known him.
“Paki” is an abbreviation exactly or much like “Brit” "Thai “Pole” “Dane” “Swede”
and others. There is nothing intrisically offensive about such a construction.
It is too bad whenever innocent terms are perverted, and it seems many Americans
are unaware of fact that “Paki” is now considered by many to be a slur. I myself
became vaguely aware of the word’s potential for offence only in the last few years,
and I was skeptical until this OP that there could be many people offended by it.
Really? That’s the single most offensive word you could call any South Asian person even though it’s specific to Pakistanis and people from Pakistan use it without considering it a slur? It’s the most offensive word for South Asians even though a significant number of English speakers are unaware it’s even an insult? That’s quite a bold claim! I think at this point you’ve overstating your case. I’m not interested in going around and around on this subject, so I’ll say this one more time: we’re aware the word can be used as a slur and we moderate it accordingly. I think the moderation in this case was appropriate, and frankly, since you’d already taken the thread off topic with this gem:
I didn’t think it was necessary to press the point that “Paki” can be offensive. You’d already made that point in much more inflammatory and distracting terms than I would have.
In an early post of mine here, I got taken to task for using the term Chinaman. (I learned from that.) In another thread, the word Gringo got discussed quite seriously. Even AAVE (referred to by some as Ebonics) got two very long debate threads.
Sometimes we may say (or post) something out of ignorance. But, when we are made aware of a problem, we take pains not to re-offend. Of course, it would also be helpful if those calling attention to any problem words did so in a calm way.
SDMB, so IMHO, YMMV, – IANAR,ISIDK,IAFMUO*
*i am not a racist, I swear I didn’t know, I apologise for my unintentional offense
What “burden” are you talking about? That it’s offensive to people? Oh noes, it’s so HARD for me not to be able to use racial slurs, people!
Just because “Jap” is short for “Japan/Japanese” doesn’t mean it’s not a slur. Go back and see how it was used in the past. Or go up to some Japanese guy on the street and call him one to his face. Then get back to us and tell us his reaction.
Context plays a part. Sometimes, things DO have “cultural baggage.” Maybe not to YOU, but to other people, it does. Language doesn’t always work the way you want it to.
No, it’s not. The ‘white knights’ didn’t create the problem - they may be reacting inappropriately and out of scope, but if not for violent/aggressively racist prior use of the term, nobody would be rushing to do anything.
Exactly the right approach for words such as this. There is little doubt as to when this contraction is being used in an insulting fashion.
I’m talking about the burden of the cultural baggage associated with “Jap” and “Paki”. My culture(and many others I’m sure) does not have that baggage. We did not and do not use ‘Japs’ as a racist slur. We did not and do not use ‘Paki’ as a racist slur. I do not see why everybody must assume the burden of American and British racists having used these terms as slurs. Especially given that these terms are very similar in essence to how many other nationalities are referenced. I understand that this argument cannot be extended to other words which are primarily racist slurs for e.g nigger.
I’m not arguing that the problem was not created by racists. Merely that the preferable solution should not be an insistence that nobody should use Paki, or Jap. The preferable solution is for nobody to use these terms as racist slurs. And really, it is not difficult to tell one from the other.
Apologies for the shoddy writing btw. It is very late at night here in India.
Although it doesn’t seem useful, I’ll try one more time to explain my POV to you. You’re falling into the same trap that you think Americans are prone to. There is a world outside of the UK(where I assume you’re from based on your posts). In much of that world, (Pakistan, India, Australia and the US, just from the posters in this thread), the term ‘Paki’ does not have widespread pejorative contextual meaning. Instead of insisting that once someone from the US, Australia, Pakistan or India are aware of its pejorative context in some other places, they should immediately stop using it, and thus legitimising the pejorative form, we should focus on stamping out contextually derogatory usage. It is all the more important to do so since ‘Paki’ would otherwise be an extremely legitimate demonym(thanks for introducing me to that term btw).
In the English language, yes and since people in the UK would refer to me as a Paki and have done so to my father I think I’m in a position to judge. And yes, as has been pointed out several times it’s regularly used to apply to all South Asians not merely those from Pakistan and yes, if it’s okay to compare the use of the term “Tranny” to “Nigger” then it’s certainly fair to compare “Paki” to “nigger”.
I’m sorry that I got offended by seeing a poster use a racial slur my father was called with impunity and I’m sorry you got upset at me for using a common tactic used by others, such as the Native American activists I already mentioned, to fight back against it.
I’m sure that it would be unthinkable for Black, gay, or Hispanic posters would react in such a way to racial slurs being used on the thread.
That would be like African-American students at an Ivy League school after the school allowed Southern students to fly the Confederate flags out their windows to hang white sheets out their window with a swastika drawn on it.
Or worse yet, the largest Native American organization in the US to hold signs outside football stadiums emblazoned with the phrases “The New York Niggers, The Cleveland Kikes, sever similar names ending with the phrase, The Washington Redskins”.
Ok, sarcasm mode off.
Clearly I’ve done something to get your goat which wasn’t my intention. I can disagree with a person’s decision without disagreeing with them and recognize that on lots of subjects people don’t see eye to eye.
That said, I’ll note this is about the third or fourth different explanation for your decision.
You began by claiming that since Trustseeker2 had apologized you decided to let him slide. I pointed out, and you agreed he hadn’t, but then later said you saw no reason to mod note him because Trutherseeker2 had already been given several moderator notes. I pointed out he hadn’t recieved one much less “several”.
Now, you seem to have switched gears again and said you would have warned him, even after you’d earlier said that you felt that what he’d said wasn’t “derogatory” that you would have except you were upset by my response.
In fact, perhaps I’m wrong, but you seem to be more angry at my reacting to a bigoted anti-Muslim post than you were by the bigoted anti-Muslim post.(Note: this is not meant to insinuate that you’re insensitive or tolerant of bigotry).
Look, I won’t lie, there was a time I was angry about the decision and that is certainly part of the reason I reacted the way I did. We all make emotional decisions which we often regret and try and come up with post facto rationalizations.
Are you sure you didn’t make an emotional decision which you’re trying to rationalize after the fact. I ask because you’ve made inconsistent arguments, and appear to be back-pedaling.
Again the question isn’t meant to be insulting and if the answer is yes, it doesn’t make you stupid, an asshole, or a bad moderator, but human.
I agree.
I disagree - and this thread is a supporting example - the linked instance of a phrase containing the term ‘paki’ is ambiguous unless you know the nationality of the writer.
The question of whether truthseeker2 was using the term as a racist slur was resolved fairly easily I would think(Ibn Warraq’s constant claims that it wasn’t aside). This thread has been much more about whether there should be a blanket ban on the term. Would a blanket ban be easier to enforce? Sure. Would it be the better solution? No, and you’re in agreement with me there. Is it easy to tell from context(and nationality forms part of that, surely) whether it was a racial slur or not? Maybe not, but the mod(s) seems to think that it is at least possible, and is willing to try and make that distinction. I’m in his corner.
Yeah - I don’t think a blanket ban is either realistic or reasonable - I’m just disagreeing that it’s particularly easy, even for a person aware of the usage nuances of the term, to always be able to discern whether racism is at play or not.
I would guess that Yank, Brit and Aussie were all originally slurs, but through frequent use in diverse situations they became acceptable shorthand.
Pakistanis is a long word. I’d prefer to be able to say Paki. To the best of my knowledge, it’s not a slur in the US and several posters have backed me up. However, the Pakistanis may be even more offended that we would lump them under the general term Indian.
As far as I know, there is no slur for people from Southeastern Asia. They are prominent in the gas station, motel and convenience store industries and people appreciate those services.
Oh, wait. I just thought of something. I can conceive that someone would have though of Using Apu (Simpsons) as a derogatory term. But Apu is a kind and hardworking man. Everyone likes him. Again, it’s more shorthand than nasty.
You can compare anything to anything else. That doesn’t mean the things being compared are equal or even similar.
But not sorry enough to avoid posting words like kike and nigger and spic and homo and Jap dozens of times because we all know those words don’t offend anybody, and nobody could object to seeing them you post them over and over again in service of a rhetorical point about a term that offends you.
I have not changed my explanation other than noting that I was wrong to say initially that truthSeeker2 had apologized when he’d only said he did not intend to cause offense. I’ve elaborated on my answers in response to your questions. Do you have anything else you want me to explain? At this point you’re doing nothing except insisting I repeat myself.
No, I did not make an emotional decision. I’m not sure where you think my emotions came into play in my decision not to issue a specific mod note about the word “Paki.” Even if I agreed with you in this thread, I would not go back and warn or mod-note truthSeeker2 two and a half weeks later.
I didn’t think we were debating whether or not I was stupid, an asshole, or a bad moderator. I thought we were discussing how we moderate words like “Paki” and explaining why we considered the situation resolved after posts #23 and #29 without a more specific warning.
Now you’re just being paranoid. If I’m referring to you, I’ll be explicit.
Last chance for both of you: take your grievances to the Pit or just stop responding to each other.