Tell you what. Walk up top ten individual people in London of Pakistani or Indian descent and call them “Pakis”. Then report back here. Trust me, exactly zero out of ten will welcome the term. Depending on the individual, the extremity of their reaction may vary, of course. Sorry, dude. It’s a racist term. It is used by right-wing nationalists; it is used by drunken racists on a Saturday night out. Whether you like it or not, it is.
Jeez, why am I even explaining this? Like I said, feel free to wander around using it; I’m sure nobody will take offence. Knock yourself out. Doesn’t affect me.
Brit ios not a derogratory term. But yes, if a word becomes a derogatory term - say, “custard” or “cheese” - then we should stop using it. Because, generally, we should endeavour not to be derogatory - ESPECIALLY about race, gender, and sexuality.
Fair point - if some newbie to the board wanders out with it (or some other such racist term - whether they know it’s racist or not) then a polite nudge from one of the Mods (either via PM or in the thread in question) as to why it’s unacceptable here should suffice. If not, and that advice is ignored, then the Mods have the ultimate sanction.
I find it hard to think that the term “Paki” carries with it the same connotation as “Nigger”. I might be totally wrong, and I’m not saying it isn’t offensive, but it doesn’t seem to carry the same cultural significance.
I was raised in Gardena CA. I knew no-one there,* Issei, Nisei , Sansei, Yonsei* or Gosei that thought “Jap” was insulting. My dad was a member of the same VFW post as all those 442nd veterans, and I heard proud Nisei veterans talk about "when you were over having it easy fighting the Japs, we were fighting the tough guys, the Nazis ". Mind you, they were kidding.
Yes, many did like it if you either knew enough to call them Sansei or *just plain “Americans”. *
Everything is a slur to someone. It was pointed out on this board that “Brit” is a slur (by an Irishman who said that everytime he used it, he meant it as a slur), and altho I dont mind being called a “Yank” I gaur-ON-tee you that there are some south of the M-D would would very much resent that.
I knew a young black woman- but if you called her “Black” she would get up in your face about it “I am not Black, I am a lovely shade of Mocha!”. Are we going to change our board policies to make her happy? No using “black” only “mocha” (and I am sure someone will think that’s a slur too).
Paki* is* a slur-* in GB.* Over here, in America it’s just a short term for Pakistani. Hell in Fremont they have “Paki” named businesses & clubs- and that’s because (as our Pakistani member pointed out) it’s not a slur in Pakistan, either.
It’s not a slur outside GB. But then, they use a lot of words in a way we don’t “bum, bloody, fag”. Will is be OK to use Fag here as it’s not a slur in GB?
This is a American board. Now that we shouldn’t be somewhat sensitive to others, but until we get actual UK people of Pakistani descent getting upset, let us not let the board be run by people only *pretending *to be butthurt, so that they can act all “holier than thou”- which is exactly what this is about.
The debate should have ended right at this post with a Emily Litella “nevermind”.
Unless someone is saying that “damn it bldysabba has to be insulted by that term, cause I know better than he does what he should find a slur!”:rolleyes:
This is factually wrong on a number of levels: it is a racial slur in more countries than just UK - they are listed earlier in the thread, but pretty much in every Commonwealth country.
As for ‘fag’ - this is a specious claim , as the two contexts in which each is used (US slang meaning homosexual, and UK meaning cigarette) are entirely different and cannot be conflated, as you’re attempting to do - whereas there is only one meaning for ‘Paki’ in both countries (i.e. to refer to a Pakistani person). And the fact that the US doesn’t (yet, and may never do) accept that the rest of the English-speaking world understands Paki to be a racial slur doesn’t change that.
Freedom from the reds and the blacks and the criminals
Prostitutes, pansies and punks
Football hooligans, juvenile delinquents
Lesbians and left wing scum
Freedom from the niggers and the Pakis and the unions
Freedom from the Gipsies and the Jews
Freedom from leftwing layabouts and liberals
Freedom from the likes of you…"
But since my misspent American youth included lots of PBS which also meant lots of the BBC (and punk music :puts on some 2 Tone* and waves to the SHARPs:) I didn’t have a moment with those lyrics.
CMC fnord!
*The Specials Ghost Town then The Clash Guns of Brixton to get the anger out, and finish the night with Steel Pulse and just play the whole Handsworth Revolution album and try to remember the name of that RAR concert movie.
Yeah, maybe some Commonwealth nations, but my Canadian relatives don’t think so. Do the Aussies…oops *Australians *think so? Any Down Under posters ( or is that a slur too) want to chime in? Or do you personally speak for the entire Commonwealth from your tiny island? Or is calling it “tiny” a slur?
And, I’ll point out that Pakistan is part of *the English-speaking world *too, as well as India etc, even if for many it’s not their first language (and of course others don’t speak it at all, still there are more that speak it there than in England)
Thus thinking that the Commonwealth “is the rest of the English-speaking world” shows your viewpoint is a little “insular” (or is *that *a slur?)
Beyond that, no one would classify Hispanics as a race or Mexicans as a race, but if someone were to say “Mexicans are assholes” or “Hispanics are scum” I assume you wouldn’t object to my classifying those as racist comments.
Similarly no one would classify Arabs as a race but I assume most of you would not object to me classifying the term “ragheads” as a “racial slur.”
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I would assume that anyone who is so thin-skinned that they’d accuses me of being a sexist for saying
Would feel that way.
If I’m wrong and you think it would be appalling to classify “raghead” or “spic” as racial slurs because neither Arabs nor Hispanics are “races” than apologies for making assumptions.
Similarly, if you object to classifying “all Mexicans are scum” as racist crap because Mexi cans aren’t a race then further apologies for making assumptions based on previous statements you’ve made.
That being said, if you feel that “raghead” and “spic” aren’t racial slurs and that “all Mexicans are scum” isn’t racist then please explain your reasoning.
Anyway, it’s as legitimate to classify bigoted comments about Muslims as “racist” as it is to classify bigoted comments about Hispanics or Arabs as “racist”.
If you disagree that we’re not a race, well, then I’m reminded about Allesan’s comment regarding charges that Jews aren’t a nationality, “Sorry we don’t fit your definition of nationality, we came first.”
First of all, lots of non-Pakistanis are referred to as “Paki”.
Second are you insisting that my father was only pretending to by “butthurt” as you so classily put it, when he got upset at being referred to as a Paki?
If so, please explain why you think he was “pretending to be butthurt”?
Your Father would have every reason to feel it was a slur. But afaik, he’s not a poster here. We have one Pakistani who has expressed a opinion, and he’s fine with the term.
Now, my friend who doesnt like the term “Black”- should we change board policies for her, since she’s not even a poster here?
Are we going to make policies based upon one poster? Or even one nation of posters (outside the USA)?
Ok, so then please explain why it’s perfectly fair to argue that calling a trans person a “tranny” is similar to calling a black person a “nigger” but not fair to argue that calling a South Asian a “Paki” is similar to calling a black person a “nigger”.
Are you a “Paki”? Would it be absurd to think that people in Europe if they saw you would call you a “Paki”? Have you had family members who were called “Paki”? I ask because bluntly put, unless the answer is yes to those questions then your comment means no more to me than a white person’s complaining about black people “always bring up race” or “overreacting to racial comments” means to the average black person.
I remember in college lots of white students getting upset when they saw African-American students wearing T-shirts that said “It’s a Black Thing, You Wouldn’t Understand” but truth be told, it was the truth.
That said, I’ll be honest and admit that many of the African-American students who wore those shirts were being counter-productive and unnecessarily antagonistic towards people who weren’t their enemy.
Were you genuinely offended by that?
I’m not asking to ridicule your sensibilities or beliefs but because I’m honestly surprised.
There’s a drastic difference between using the term “nigger” as an insult and as a way to show show offensive another word is.
The NAACP and the Black Student Union at my school were certainly quite upset when they heard of skinheads walking around carrying signs saying “fuck niggers”. They were not when AIM(the American Indian Movement) walked around carrying signs comparing calling a football team “The New York Niggers” to calling a football team “The Washington Redskins”.
similarly, there was an incident at my college when some assholes had chalked a bund of anti-gay slurs on the sidewalk and the gay student union rather publicly asked how the school would have reacted if instead of making reference to “fags” the graffiti artists had made references to “niggers” or “kikes”.
Neither the Black Student Union nor the Jewish Student Union were offended by the actions or complaints of the gay student union.
Similarly, I don’t remember any Jews I knew in the 90s getting outraged at people bringing up the Holocaust when describing either the events in Rwanda or Bosnia since people weren’t bringing up the Holocaust to denigrate Holocaust survivors or Jews but bring attention to horrible events the may or may not have been comparable to the Holocaust.
Nor, for that matter, do I remember any blacks I went school with and who I saw the movie The Commitments with flipping out when one of the characters in the movie said the Irish were “the niggers of Europe” since it was clear that the term nigger was not meant to denigrate African-Americans or their struggles but to illustrate the issues people in Ireland faced.
(bolding mine)
Ok, two questions.
in post #71 you justified your decision to allow Truthseeker2 to make racial slurs by saying “since we gave truthseeker2 several other mod instructions” you decided it would be wrong to give him another mod instruction.
I’ve looked through the thread and don’t see him receiving a single “mod instruction” much less several. I’ve asked this twice, but I guess I’ll ask it a third time. Please link me to the “several mod instructions” he was given?
Similarly, in post #125, you very strongly implied that you would have left a mod note informing Truthseeker2 not to use the term “Paki” again if I had not compared the used of the phrase “Paki” to the use of the phrase “nigger” “spic” and “kike”. So, had I not posted that comment would you have decided to mod note him not to use the phrase “Paki” again?
I ask those questions because I’m genuinely interested in your answers.
Ok, I was trying to make it clear that I wasn’t trying to insult you, but in retrospect I cam across more than a little condescending. I apologize for that. In my defense, it’s often difficult to talk to white people about racial/ethnic issues without walking on eggshells.
He wasn’t and still isn’t a “Pakistani from the UK” so why, based on your logic did he have “every reason to feel it was a slur”(to use your wording) as opposed to “pretending to be butthurt”(to use you completely classy non-obnoxious terminology)?
What it comes down to: why is so important that people be allowed to use words that are racial slurs? And DrDeth, if you’re going to insist that this is an American board, and thus “paki” doesn’t count as a slur, then perhaps you shouldn’t be so quick to insist that “jap” isn’t offensive either. Can’t have it both ways.
Honestly, why is such a big burden to NOT use certain words here, people?
In the UK, the term ‘Paki’ is indeed approximately as offensive as thee term ‘Nigger’ is in the USA. The background is different, but in terms of intensity, it’s a reasonably apt comparison.
moment with those lyrics.