# IF "paranormal" was observed, would it be parnormal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2007, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567 "2007-09-09T13:39:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/121 "2007-09-12T02:23:53Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] So, if I accept your arguments here about the utter lack of the paranormal, next I have to change the meaning to suit you when it’s an argument you decide merits a new meaning. You’re an absolute genius. [/QUOTE] I _am_ an absolute genius, but that’s not important now. Which “meaning” would you have to change, when? I don’t understand this garbledygook after the “next”: include referents. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/122 "2007-09-12T02:37:59Z")
Prove the paranormal. Explain the unexplainable. From the positions stated here that #1 nothing is unexplainable #2 anything previously thought unexplainable when presented enters the realm of science and belief of ultimate explanation, the propostion to prove that paranormal exist is a paradox. You can’t prove that anything is unexplainable. It’s mere existence is construed to mean explainable, even in the absence of an explanation. If you prove the unproveable, it isn’t unproveable anymore. It just got proved. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/123 "2007-09-12T02:49:09Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] No, you cited definitons for “supernatural”. And the words used in a sentence are called _examples_ . Telepathy would surely be paranormal. [/QUOTE] Since telepathy=paranormal, and telepathy=make-believe, then paranormal=make-believe. Right? Forget proof. Can you come up with any verifiable _evidence_ of the existence of telepathy? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/124 "2007-09-12T02:50:09Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Prove the paranormal. Explain the unexplainable. From the positions stated here that #1 nothing is unexplainable #2 anything previously thought unexplainable when presented enters the realm of science and belief of ultimate explanation, the propostion to prove that paranormal exist is a paradox. You can’t prove that anything is unexplainable. It’s mere existence is construed to mean explainable, even in the absence of an explanation. If you prove the unproveable, it isn’t unproveable anymore. It just got proved. [/QUOTE] Please give us one example of something that will never and can never be explained. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/125 "2007-09-12T02:52:31Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Now you’re getting somewhere. [/quote] How would you know if he was getting somewhere, if everything is unknowable. Maybe you only _think_ he’s getting somewhere. Maybe you only _think_ you’re seeing his post, and my post, and everyone’s posts. What is a more _useful_ philosophy; assuming his post is real, or assuming that it’s an illusion? > [@](#): > > We don’t know. We know we can’t know. We are limited in our understanding of much more than the most basic of facts about our conscious experience. Arguing that explanations exist but we just haven’t realised them is nonsense. We simply can not unify belief. Not even in our own minds, much less in the realm of the collective conscious. Establishing consistency in deductive logic is not only a tough problem, \*the time needed to solve it grows exponentially with the number of premises for every known method of finding solutions. \* The most simple sounding premises can not be proved in a human lifetime, much less to assume that _all premises_ can ever be shown consistant. Fortunately for you, other people who take a more pragmatic view of the universe have applied reason to grow the food you eat, produce the clothes you wear and build the house you’re in. If you lived according to your beliefs, you’d have frozen and starved by now. > [@](#): > > Again, this all pretty much a display of arrogance Damn straight, and a well-earned arrogance at that. Until someone comes along and shows otherwise, I’d say humans are kings of all we survey. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/126 "2007-09-12T02:53:07Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Which of course, implies mistakes, wrong answers, bad science. And lots of it. [/QUOTE] Well, duh. The simple fact that science progresses imples that. As opposed to religion and the “paranormal”, which hug their revealed “truths” to themselves, ignore error, and therefore stagnate. Once again, no similarity. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/127 "2007-09-12T02:57:51Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Since telepathy=paranormal, and telepathy=make-believe, then paranormal=make-believe. Right? Forget proof. Can you come up with any verifiable _evidence_ of the existence of telepathy? [/QUOTE] Nope. I don’t believe it to exist. But if it did, we would try to explain it. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/128 "2007-09-12T02:59:38Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Please give us one example of something that will never and can never be explained. [/QUOTE] Intelligence in the form of human consciuosness. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/129 "2007-09-12T03:02:16Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] How would you know if he was getting somewhere, if everything is unknowable. Maybe you only _think_ he’s getting somewhere. Maybe you only _think_ you’re seeing his post, and my post, and everyone’s posts. What is a more _useful_ philosophy; assuming his post is real, or assuming that it’s an illusion? Fortunately for you, other people who take a more pragmatic view of the universe have applied reason to grow the food you eat, produce the clothes you wear and build the house you’re in. If you lived according to your beliefs, you’d have frozen and starved by now.Damn straight, and a well-earned arrogance at that. Until someone comes along and shows otherwise, I’d say humans are kings of all we survey. [/QUOTE] Food and shelter are evident in lower life forms and do not require scientific explanation or human understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/130 "2007-09-12T03:04:12Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Well, duh. The simple fact that science progresses imples that. As opposed to religion and the “paranormal”, which hug their revealed “truths” to themselves, ignore error, and therefore stagnate. Once again, no similarity. [/QUOTE] I agree with your assesment of religion but reject your notion of paranormal. Paranormal, by it’s essence, has no truth. it is the absence of such, in theory of course. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/131 "2007-09-12T03:20:33Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Food and shelter are evident in lower life forms and do not require scientific explanation or human understanding. [/QUOTE] Okay, so without the benefits of technology created using scientifically-derived principles, are you prepared to go run down an impala and chew the meat from its bones while sheltering yourself under a tree to stay out of the African sun? Can’t get any less arrogant than that, I guess. Just don’t try using flint to start a campfire, because that’d be an act of faith in something unknowable, i.e. the magic fairies that make the sparks as they dance to the beat of your flint-slamming in their magical discotheques. ---
**Author:** ![Yumblie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/76d3ee/32.png) [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/132 "2007-09-12T03:21:23Z")
This just sounds like a semantics argument now. You might as well ask what happens when an unstoppable force meets an unmovable object. The situation is only a paradox because of how you define your terms. If something moves an unmovable object, well then, it was obviously mislabeled and will now be referred to as a movable object. If we observe and prove something paranormal, and you define paranormal as something that is unknowable, well, we’re in a bit of a sticky situation here aren’t we! Oh wait, I guess if something was just proved, then it wasn’t unknowable after all. That’s why pencils have erasers, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/133 "2007-09-12T03:24:35Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Okay, so without the benefits of technology created using scientifically-derived principles, are you prepared to go run down an impala and chew the meat from its bones while sheltering yourself under a tree to stay out of the African sun? Can’t get any less arrogant than that, I guess. Just don’t try using flint to start a campfire, because that’d be an act of faith in something unknowable, i.e. the magic fairies that make the sparks as they dance to the beat of your flint-slamming in their magical discotheques. [/QUOTE] I’m gonna wait for lighting to strike. I won’t try to understand or explain it. I’ll just accept the fire and keep it burning under my tree…shit…I had hoped for a cave. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/134 "2007-09-12T03:25:38Z")
[QUOTE=Yumblie] This just sounds like a semantics argument now. You might as well ask what happens when an unstoppable force meets an unmovable object. The situation is only a paradox because of how you define your terms. If something moves an unmovable object, well then, it was obviously mislabeled and will now be referred to as a movable object. If we observe and prove something paranormal, and you define paranormal as something that is unknowable, well, we’re in a bit of a sticky situation here aren’t we! Oh wait, I guess if something was just proved, then it wasn’t unknowable after all. That’s why pencils have erasers, you know. [/QUOTE] Eureka. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/135 "2007-09-12T03:29:45Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] I’m gonna wait for lighting to strike. I won’t try to understand or explain it. I’ll just accept the fire and keep it burning under my tree…shit…I had hoped for a cave. [/QUOTE] Or, rather than blindly hope, you could observe your environment and gradually build up a series or hypotheses of how it works and how you can manipulate it for your own ends, altering your hypotheses as needed when you observe something new. Just don’t label anything - that’d be arrogant. You’ll have to get by with: Fire = “ugh” Tree = “ugh” Cave = “ugh” Shit = “ugh” Or is “ugh” too presumptuous? ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/136 "2007-09-12T03:34:59Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Or, rather than blindly hope, you could observe your environment and gradually build up a series or hypotheses of how it works and how you can manipulate it for your own ends, altering your hypotheses as needed when you observe something new. [/QUOTE] Ah, evoltuion of intelligence. Remarkably slow phenomenon right up until the last 300 years. The rate has moved remarkably, right up to the point that we’re having a discussion of the possibilty of the finite or infinite nature of our conscious understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/137 "2007-09-12T03:37:56Z")
We’d better stop before we prove the unexplained claim that we can tear a hole in the universe and all information is absorbed into a black hole that has been explained to theoretically destroy information. Then we’d have to start all over again. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/138 "2007-09-12T03:50:07Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Ah, evoltuion of intelligence. Remarkably slow phenomenon right up until the last 300 years. The rate has moved remarkably, right up to the point that we’re having a discussion of the possibilty of the finite or infinite nature of our conscious understanding. [/QUOTE] By your statements, the entire process is useless so it doesn’t matter how remarkable the rate is. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/139 "2007-09-12T03:59:52Z")
[QUOTE=Iknewit] Intelligence in the form of human consciuosness. [/QUOTE] This sentence makes no sense. Are you trying to say that human consciousness can _never_ be explained? Why would you believe this? ---
**Author:** ![Iknewit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4491bb/32.png) [@Iknewit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iknewit)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567/140 "2007-09-12T04:12:58Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] This sentence makes no sense. Are you trying to say that human consciousness can _never_ be explained? Why would you believe this? [/QUOTE] Why not ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-paranormal-was-observed-would-it-be-parnormal/418567.md?page=8)