# If Pence lies on Jan. 6? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 15, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112 "2020-12-15T17:28:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/1 "2020-12-15T17:28:49Z")
Just suppose, as Pence is presiding over the counting of the electoral votes, he opens the envelope from California and announces, “55 votes for Trump for president and 55 votes for Pence for vice-president.” What happens next? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/2 "2020-12-15T17:44:57Z")
Northern Piper had a good run-down of the redundancy of the Electoral College votes here: > [@Election Day \[Week\]\[Month\[s\]\] \[Year\] 2020 follow-along thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/election-day-week-month-2020-follow-along-thread/924618/7833): > > The electors in each state send one of their certified copies of the vote to the attention of the President of the Senate (ie Mike Pence), by registered mail. See [3 US Code § 11](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/11): ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/3 "2020-12-15T17:58:47Z")
Nah, he’s no Thomas Jefferson. Also, he gets to open the envelope, but then hands it over to the designated tellers from both delegations, who read the vote. > **[RL32717.pdf](https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/RL32717.pdf)** > > 950.23 KB > [@](#): > > Opening of the Votes > Section 15 provides that the President of the Senate open and presentthe certificates of the electoral votes of the states and the District of Columbia in alphabetical order. (As discussed above, under 3 U.S.C. §§9-10, the electors in each state, having voted, are to sign, seal, and certify the certificates. Under §11 of the same title, they are to mail one such certificate to the President of the Senate and mail two others to the Archivist of the United States.) > > Reading of the Votes by House and Senate Tellers > The certificate, or an equivalent document, from each state andthe District of Columbiais to be read then by tellers previously appointed from among the membership of the House and Senate. Before the joint session convenes, each chamber appoints two of its Members to be the tellers. Though it would be a fascinating thing to imagine one of the younger Dems leaping up from the floor to try and hit Pence with his own gavel. Considering the average age of the Senate we’d lose a few Senators in the ensuing riot. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/4 "2020-12-15T23:51:28Z")
Pence: I declare all 55 of California’s EVs for President Donald J. Trump Schumer: You mean to tell me that despite all of the media coverage that California voted for Biden, that CA electors were shown on TV voting for Biden, and there was no possible way according to any poll that California went for Trump, you are telling me that the piece of paper you are holding is a signed certificate of ascertainment saying that the Governor of California certified that 55 electors voted for Trump? Pence: Yes. Schumer: May I see it? Pence: No. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Rj0Tj8dnrYw/hqdefault.jpg "Aurora Borealis?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj0Tj8dnrYw) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/5 "2020-12-15T23:53:51Z")
If Pence did that on January 6, there would be plenty of time to impeach him before January 20. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/6 "2020-12-16T00:35:54Z")
I’m telling you. I just don’t think he’ll show up. President Pro Tempore is doing this stuff. He’s too much of a coward to announce Biden is president-to-be unless Trump gives the go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/7 "2020-12-16T00:42:02Z")
I’m sorta inclined to agree, but I wonder…what political career does he think he have after this? He’s not the heir apparent to Trump - he was always Race Bannon/‘enabler guy’. That was his job. He had one job. Did it well. But what career could he possibly have after this? Take over Joel Osteen’s church? Nah, he has no charisma whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/8 "2020-12-16T00:54:13Z")
I think you may be right. Pence is a coward. I only hope that his name becomes synonymous with “someone who is a gutless worm of an enabler of a pathetic weak coward wanna-be dictator” Sort of like what happened with Quisling. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/9 "2020-12-16T01:33:41Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I think you may be right. Pence is a coward. He may go, but nothing can change that. No coward would cling to Trump unless they are the deepest of cowards. And a Christian, too. A true fraud. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/10 "2020-12-16T01:58:38Z")
Pence will be there. It will be his very last act as a public official, why miss it? ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/11 "2020-12-16T02:13:59Z")
The nuttiest of the nutty Trumpers are pinning their remaining hopes on Jan. 6. They’ve got it in their heads that Congress will act to “correct” all that fraud that’s been going around, and recognize that Trump won the election fair and square. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/12 "2020-12-16T02:29:35Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Pence will be there. It will be his very last act as a public official, why miss it? I think it is possible, but I think he may want to prove to Trump-supporters that he sides with them. I heard Mitch McConnell today privately began calling Republicans to ask them _not_ to object on January 6. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/13 "2020-12-16T02:49:57Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I think it is possible, but I think he may want to prove to Trump-supporters that he sides with them. But ditching the joint session would be the ultimate abandonment of Trump in the eyes of his supporters. The hard core Trumpers are already weaving a narrative that the establishment GOP has been complicit in the “steal” by refusing to overturn the result by any means necessary. In their eyes, Pence as presiding officer of the joint session is their last, best hope to correct this injustice. If he decides to hide in a closet that day, they’ll never forgive him. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/14 "2020-12-16T03:02:08Z")
If Pence doesn’t show up, who would be in line to take up his duties that day? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/15 "2020-12-16T03:10:30Z")
Chuck Grassley. My bet is he would just count them and announce the winner or whatever they do in the role. It’s a non-event, pretty much. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/16 "2020-12-16T03:29:23Z")
Hmm. So, 3 U.S. Code§15 says, “The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o’clock in the afternoon on that day, and _the President of the Senate [defined in the Constitution as the Vice President] **shall be** their presiding officer_.” The statue conspicuously does NOT provide for any other official to take his place in his absence. Why assume it would be the President Pro Tempore? It’s a joint session of Congress, why wouldn’t the Speaker of the House have equal standing to preside in the VP’s absence? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/17 "2020-12-16T03:41:25Z")
Article 1, Section 3: 1. The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/18 "2020-12-16T04:24:24Z")
Yes, but that’s speaking specifically about a President pro tempore to fill in for the VP’s absence _in the Senate_. The PPT doesn’t fill in for the VP in other capacities – e.g. the VP is a member of the National Security Council but the PPT doesn’t sit in those meetings if the Veep is absent. And the Speaker of the House typically chairs other joint sessions such as for the State of the Union. Maybe I’m overthinking it, but I do think it’s an open question whether being presiding officer of the joint session would necessarily devolve to the PPT in the VPs absence. I’ve tried to find out if it’s come up in previous joint sessions (the guy has to take a pee break every now and again, right?) but haven’t been able to find anything. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/19 "2020-12-16T12:45:49Z")
You’re overthinking it. The statute you cite doesn’t specify the “Vice President” - it specifies the “President of the Senate”. @Telemark cites the relevant clause of the Constitution. The President pro tempore _is_ the President of the Senate when the Vice President is not present. There’s no ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112/20 "2020-12-16T13:03:56Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > The President pro tempore _is_ the President of the Senate when the Vice President is not present. Exactly, the Constitution lays out how the president of the senate works, and it applies to every situation unless specified otherwise. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-pence-lies-on-jan-6/928112.md?page=2)