# If people of Spanish descent are "people of color" why aren't Italians? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 17, 2016, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390 "2016-01-17T08:12:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/41 "2016-01-17T21:56:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Both. Except in the north, much of Argentina was not suitable for settled agriculture and so was not as densely settled as Mesoamerica or the Andean highlands. In the late 19th Century campaigns of extermination were carried out against the Indians in the south. And besides that, unlike other Latin American countries Argentina strongly encouraged immigration from Europe, especially from Italy, Spain, and Germany. Pre-war Argentina was also a much more attractive place tor Europeans to emigrate to than the rest of Latin American. It had one of the top economies in the world at the turn of the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/42 "2016-01-17T22:21:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > On the other hand, Argentina is the “whitest” country I have ever seen, including countries in Europe. Riding the subway in Buenos Aires I rarely saw anyone with dark skin. Unsurprising given it’s where [this hummingbird](http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t464/monkapotamus/ebay%2001_16/colibriuberalles_zpsrtb4gir9.jpg)is found. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/43 "2016-01-18T00:35:27Z")
That bird is mostly green. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/44 "2016-01-18T01:43:42Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The disconnect here is that we consider Latin Americans to be “people of color”, but Latino is an ethnic designation rather than a racial one (you can be a Latino of any race). When we made up in-groups and out-groups, we weren’t thinking at our most rationally. I met a Salvadorian (person from El Salvador) who was pale enough to pass as Irish. Latin America is enormously diverse. In some areas, most people are a "brown"ish mix of many races, in some areas people are 95% European, and in other areas, people are so black that you would think you were in Detroit except for the fact that everything is in Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/45 "2016-01-18T02:03:13Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I met a Salvadorian (person from El Salvador) who was pale enough to pass as Irish. In GODFATHER III, Andy Garcia was the logical choice to play Michael Corleone’s nephew, because Al Pacino had recently starred as Tony Montana. That sentence kinda got away from me there. That said, I was just mentioning in another thread that Oscar Isaac just earned a Golden Globe for playing a Polish-American mayor after a long career spent playing _this_ Brit and _that_ Frenchman and the occasional Russian, and, sure, the occasional immigrant from Colombia, but also a famous Jewish carpenter, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/46 "2016-01-18T02:13:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That bird is mostly green. Sigh…yes… yes it is. It is a green bird. with a Hitler mustache! I spent 10 minutes in ms paint on that damn thing ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/47 "2016-01-18T03:08:14Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I met a Salvadorian (person from El Salvador) who was pale enough to pass as Irish. You think everyone in Ireland is [pale?](https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=AwrSbDg2V5xWYYAAhTxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0YW5wMWhiBGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjEyMDZfMQRzZWMDcGl2cw--?p=colin+ferrel&fr=ymyy-t-999&fr2=piv-web) I’m always surprised at how people think everyone in Ireland has red hair and freckles and that everyone in Spain has dark hair and olive skin. > [@astro](#): > > Sigh…yes… yes it is. It is a green bird. > > with a Hitler mustache! I spent 10 minutes in ms paint on that damn thing A mustache below the mouth? That’s something new! ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/48 "2016-01-18T03:49:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Why do lots of people have an image of Syrians as brown-skinned, when the majority are peach- and olive-skinned–no different than any other Mediterranean population? Because the “image of brown skin”–the _Other color_–isn’t really about actual skin tones at all. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/49 "2016-01-18T03:52:58Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I think the use of the phrase “of color” generally is used to imply a certain outsideness of mainstream establishment and of lesser “privilege” status to the sociocultural identifier. It signifies “other” from the White majority perspective… Correct. > [@DSeid](#): > > Italians have lost their “of color” status… Nope. Not everywhere, by a long shot. I think Irish people have pretty much made the transition successfully, in America. I’m not sure that any other group has. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/50 "2016-01-18T04:03:51Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Correct. > > Nope. Not everywhere, by a long shot. > > I think Irish people have pretty much made the transition successfully, in America. I’m not sure that any other group has. Germans? Eastern Asians? Jews? Poles? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/51 "2016-01-18T04:14:13Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Technically, people of mixed European and African ancestry are mulattoes, and in the colonial period people of mixed indigenous and African origin were known as zambos. I don’t think there is a technical term for the trihybrid mix. “Pardo” is the usual equivalent term. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/52 "2016-01-18T04:24:10Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > “Pardo” is the usual equivalent term. Where? I can’t recall hearing it in Panama. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/53 "2016-01-18T04:29:55Z")
[Pardo.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardo) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/54 "2016-01-18T04:41:21Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Germans? Eastern Asians? Jews? Poles? To my knowledge (but I’d be interested in sources to the contrary), Germans have always been white in America, though the ethnic divide from English was a significant early one. I have the sense that some Slavic peoples would still be recognized on the non-white side, but I don’t know where that falls in historic and geographic terms. South of the Carpathians? East Asians and Jews have never been white, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/55 "2016-01-18T06:37:11Z")
> [@JoseB](#): > > I also see that the “black beans with rice” variety is particularly popular in Cuba (this is not a dish that you see very often in Spain). That would depend on how popular black beans are in a particular area. Don’t try to get someone born within 250km of Tolosa to use anything but black or red (never pinto, mantequilla or white). But then, if you ever are in Tolosa and there’s black beans in the menu, any choice other than the evidently and absolutely obvious one will be considered strange 🙂 Eating black beans in Tolosa counts as a pilgrimage, and you’re not even required to walk there. We call it _alubias con arroz_, though: the\* moros y cristianos\* name is from the same places which have _moros y cristianos fiestas._ ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/56 "2016-01-18T11:24:03Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Jews have never been white, obviously. Are Jews not considered “white” in present-day America? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/57 "2016-01-18T13:19:15Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Are Jews not considered “white” in present-day America? Certainly not by everyone. Some here probably think they are, given that some Jews can pass (i.e., not be readily recognized as Jewish), and antisemitism is largely out of fashion in the educated and liberal circles that many Dopers inhabit. But even difficulty in identifying a race-box to assign someone to does not preclude the desire, as I’ve observed more than once. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/58 "2016-01-18T13:32:15Z")
Is anyone who is discriminated against “not white”, **Peremensoe**? ---
**Author:** ![fjs1fs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9e8a1a/32.png) [@fjs1fs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fjs1fs)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/59 "2016-01-18T14:34:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Is anyone who is discriminated against “not white”, **Peremensoe**? If that’s the case then there are no whites. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/60 "2016-01-18T15:13:05Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Are Jews not considered “white” in present-day America? It would be a tiny minority in the US who did not consider a Jewish person to be white. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390.md?page=4)