# If people of Spanish descent are "people of color" why aren't Italians? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 17, 2016, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390 "2016-01-17T08:12:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/61 "2016-01-18T15:31:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It would be a tiny minority in the US who did not consider a Jewish person to be white. To be fair, though, there are non-white Jews. The majority of Jews are of European descent, but not all of them are. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/62 "2016-01-18T15:52:20Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > “Pardo” is the usual equivalent term. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Pardo.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardo) Not a single dictionary I consulted gives that definition (Collins, Cassel’s, University of Chicago, American Heritage, several on-line dictionaries). All give the definition (as a noun) as simply being “mulatto,” without indicating that it refers to trihybrids. In fact, even the reference cited in the Wiki article doesn’t support that definition; it refers to "esoteric terms [during the colonial period] for mixtures of races: mestizo (Indian and white), mulato (black and white), and "_en cierta medida pardo y coyote (mezclas de indio y negro)_ [“to some extent pardo and coyote (mixture of Indian and black”). Therefore “pardo” would seem to historically have been equivalent to “zambo.” Some references give _pardo_ as “old-fashioned,” or say it is restricted to particular regions like the Caribbean or southern South America. If the word ever specifically meant a trihybrid (and I don’t see any evidence of that), that usage would seem to be largely obsolete. (The usual meaning of _pardo_ is as an adjective meaning grayish brown or dark colored.) _Pardo_ as a racial classification is more common in Brazil, but even there it doesn’t refer specifically to trihybrids, but to anyone with an intermediate dark skin tone, including mulattos, _cafuzos_ (zambos), and even unmixed but assimilated Indians. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/63 "2016-01-18T16:01:07Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Is anyone who is discriminated against “not white”, **Peremensoe**? No, of course there are other angles. My specific examples of non-whiteness have been those that I’ve observed, in media or in personal experience. For example, being questioned on “what” my date “is.” The answer they want isn’t “theater major,” or “veterinarian.” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/64 "2016-01-18T16:09:01Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Some references give _pardo_ as “old-fashioned,” or say it is restricted to particular regions like the Caribbean or southern South America. If the word ever specifically meant a trihybrid (and I don’t see any evidence of that), that usage would seem to be largely obsolete. It is old-fashioned; all of these terms are, really. My acquaintance with it is in Cuban history, but I was given to understand that it was understood through much of the Hispanophone Caribbean and South America. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/65 "2016-01-18T16:10:45Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > No, of course there are other angles. My specific examples of non-whiteness have been those that I’ve observed, in media or in personal experience. For example, being questioned on “what” my date “is.” The answer they want isn’t “theater major,” or “veterinarian.” If a person ever doesn’t get asked that question, does that mean they are white? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/66 "2016-01-18T16:20:50Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > It is old-fashioned; all of these terms are, really. My acquaintance with it is in Cuban history, but I was given to understand that it was understood through much of the Hispanophone Caribbean and South America. As a specifically trihybrid cross, not just a mulatto or other mixture? I’d like to see a cite for that (certainly one better than the Wiki one.) Pardos might include trihybrids, but are not restricted to them. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/67 "2016-01-18T16:39:38Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If a person ever doesn’t get asked that question, does that mean they are white? Um… not sure if there is misunderstanding here. I would say that people who are never interrogated about the classification of their associations either: aren’t associating with anyone not readily identifiable to a simplistic racist codification (the question is not asked about people who are “obviously” either white or black, in American terms); or, aren’t associating with, or perceived to be approachable by, people who follow such a code. For example, a black Louisianian I worked with has been asked to explain his light-skinned Brazilian cafuzo girlfriend. Nobody asks him “what” _he_ is. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/68 "2016-01-18T17:07:37Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Um… not sure if there is misunderstanding here. > > I would say that people who are never interrogated about the classification of their associations either: aren’t associating with anyone not readily identifiable to a simplistic racist codification (the question is not asked about people who are “obviously” either white or black, in American terms); or, aren’t associating with, or perceived to be approachable by, people who follow such a code. For example, a black Louisianian I worked with has been asked to explain his light-skinned Brazilian cafuzo girlfriend. Nobody asks him “what” _he_ is. I have a friend who is undeniably white by parentage. But she tans very easily and very darkly. When she hangs out with me out in public, I’m pretty certain there are those mistakenly believe she’s “not white” (like when we went to the Motown musical the other night). But when she’s by herself, I’m guessing she is perceived as just another white lady. A long time ago I had lunch with another white friend (who is old enough to be my mother). We both have short wiry hairdos. The person who served us was a bit of the fawning type and told us we looked just alike, like sisters. Is this a sign that my white friend is “non white”? Or is it a sign that I’m white? I mean, I agree with you that being interrogated about one’s racial appearance marks you as “other”. But plenty of undeniably white people can look non-white just by virtue of the company they keep and the person who is doing the perceiving. Put them in a different context and the picture changes. My aunt told me a story once that may or may not be relevant. One day she asked a coworker if she was Hispanic, and the coworker practically threw a fit because it offended her than her Italianness could be mistaken for something as gauche as Puerto Rican or Mexican. Her reaction underscores the fact that there are many folks who would discriminate against a Hispanic, but embrace an Italian. So asking a person “what are you?” might be a way of determining if a person is indeed “white”. The response a person gives then dictates how they are treated, not how they appear initially. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/69 "2016-01-18T17:23:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > My aunt told me a story once that may or may not be relevant. One day she asked a coworker if she was Hispanic, and the coworker practically threw a fit because it offended her than her Italianness could be mistaken for something as gauche as Puerto Rican or Mexican. Her reaction underscores the fact that there are many folks who would discriminate against a Hispanic, but embrace an Italian. So asking a person “what are you?” might be a way of determining if a person is indeed “white”. The response a person gives then dictates how they are treated, not how they appear initially. This sort of thing was commented on in an episode of _Seinfeld_ in which Elaine was dating a guy with curly hair and ambiguous facial features. The others complimented her on being cool for dating a guy they assumed was black. Elaine was intrigued but couldn’t figure out how to ask him what his race was without giving offense. As it turned out, he was white but was dating Elaine because he thought she was Latina. ---
**Author:** ![piepiepie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@piepiepie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/piepiepie)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/70 "2016-01-18T19:46:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I mean, I agree with you that being interrogated about one’s racial appearance marks you as “other”. But plenty of undeniably white people can look non-white just by virtue of the company they keep and the person who is doing the perceiving. Put them in a different context and the picture changes. Some drunk lady at a football game thought my girlfriend was “lightskinned” (drunk lady actually asked my mom that) just because she was with us. Of course, she also assumed she was my brother’s wife/niece’s mother. She and I found it highly amusing. She’s mostly indigenous Colombian and Salvadorean, but culturally Colombian. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/71 "2016-01-18T20:05:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > One day she asked a coworker if she was Hispanic, and the coworker practically threw a fit because it offended her than her Italianness could be mistaken for something as gauche as Puerto Rican or Mexican. Her reaction underscores the fact that there are many folks who would discriminate against a Hispanic, but embrace an Italian. Coming at it the other way around, the #1 TV show in _1950s America_ centered around a guy from Cuba who spanked his white wife and put a baby in her. Can you imagine pitching that with a black husband? Go ahead, I’ll wait. ---
**Author:** ![Abner\_Ravenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Abner\_Ravenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abner_Ravenwood)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/72 "2016-01-18T20:58:47Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > I met a Salvadorian (person from El Salvador) who was pale enough to pass as Irish. Latin America is enormously diverse. In some areas, most people are a "brown"ish mix of many races, in some areas people are 95% European, and in other areas, people are so black that you would think you were in Detroit except for the fact that everything is in Spanish. My Salvadoran ex girlfriend’s best friend back home was a redheaded ginger with freckles. ---
**Author:** ![Abner\_Ravenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Abner\_Ravenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abner_Ravenwood)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/73 "2016-01-18T21:01:39Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > “Pardo” is the usual equivalent term. The racial classifications got real complicated real quick, [![](https://nativeheritageproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/casta.jpg?w=640) ](https://nativeheritageproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/casta.jpg?w=640) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/74 "2016-01-19T07:03:31Z")
Lots of those names never seem to have gotten much traction outside of people who just liked inventing little boxes, though. That same page was pictured in one of my history books: there’s words I’d heard before but never with that meaning, others I’d never heard before, and the notion of separating “white father and black mother” from “white mother and black father” makes my ears try to cross. Example: _castizo_. To me, “someone whose family has lived in a specific place, most notably Madrid, for a long time” ([rae’s 2](http://dle.rae.es/?id=7rN99ki)). Rae’s fourth definition is racial: _cuarterón_, which I learned as “someone with one black grandparent and three white ones”. The definition in the picture is “someone with an Amerindian paternal grandparent and a Spanish mother”… and that mother may not even be “white” as in “100% caucasian” because of the next picture (now, if the child of a _castizo_ and a Spanish woman is Spanish and we’re differentiating paternomaternal lines so much, are the children of a _castiza_ and a Spanish man Spanish, or are they pineapples?). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/75 "2016-01-19T09:11:17Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > No, of course there are other angles. My specific examples of non-whiteness have been those that I’ve observed, in media or in personal experience. For example, being questioned on “what” my date “is.” The answer they want isn’t “theater major,” or “veterinarian.” I think your criteria for determining “non-whiteness” is complete nonsense. I get asked “what” I am, which is german, all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/76 "2016-01-19T10:47:00Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > I think your criteria for determining “non-whiteness” is complete nonsense. I get asked “what” I am, which is german, all the time. Are you an American of German ancestry, or an actual German? Everything I’ve said, unless otherwise specified, has been about the American idea of and approach to race. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/77 "2016-01-19T11:22:59Z")
A good black friend of mine brought colour into respective for me. We were having a conversation and I referred to him as coloured, his reply was, I am not coloured I am black, you are coloured with your pink skin yellow hair blue eyes and red lips you are not just coloured you clash and he was perfectly correct. Now many years later my fading beauty is becoming a neutral grey. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/78 "2016-01-19T12:30:59Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Are you an American of German ancestry, or an actual German? Everything I’ve said, unless otherwise specified, has been about the American idea of and approach to race. When I lived in northern NJ, a common introduction query among white colleagues was “What are you?” That’s because many NJ dwellers have a hyphenated identity. Irish-American. Italian-American. Portuguese-American. Polish-American. I don’t think this kind of conversation happens everywhere in the States, though. I definitely don’t remember cats pegging themselves as “Italian” back in my days in Georgia. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/79 "2016-01-19T13:00:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > When I lived in northern NJ, a common introduction query among white colleagues was “What are you?” That’s because many NJ dwellers have a hyphenated identity. Irish-American. Italian-American. Portuguese-American. Polish-American. Happens in NY , too. It probably only happens in places with a recent history of ethnic neighborhoods ( this neighborhood for the German butcher, that one for the Polish bakery, a third for the Italian pastry shop) , which would not include the entire US. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390/80 "2016-01-19T14:13:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > When I lived in northern NJ, a common introduction query among white colleagues was “What are you?” That’s because many NJ dwellers have a hyphenated identity. Irish-American. Italian-American. Portuguese-American. Polish-American. > > I don’t think this kind of conversation happens everywhere in the States, though. I definitely don’t remember cats pegging themselves as “Italian” back in my days in Georgia. Nor in Cali except amongst Latinos…Mexican, Salvi, Guatemalan etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-of-spanish-descent-are-people-of-color-why-arent-italians/743390.md?page=5)