# If people were armed (concealed firearms) on a NYC subway, I would not feel safe would you? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 3, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351 "2022-07-03T20:05:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/1 "2022-07-03T20:05:53Z")
From this post > [@Supreme Court says Constitution protects right to carry a gun outside the home](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-constitution-protects-right-to-carry-a-gun-outside-the-home/966692/143): > > Would speak to this but we’re getting too far away from the specific subject of the Supreme Court’s Bruen ruling. Only if those people had the most excellent training might I feel safer. Might. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/2 "2022-07-03T20:09:02Z")
Are you talking about the good guys or the bad guys? I lived in Manhattan from 1991 - 2000 and always assumed there were people with concealed weapons (licensed or not) on the trains. ---
**Author:** ![LivingGhost371](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@LivingGhost371](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LivingGhost371)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/3 "2022-07-03T20:39:09Z")
I don’t feel safe where people are not allowed to carry concealed firearms unless there’s armed security to protect me (like in an airport) in lieu of good guys with guns. I assume the criminals are just going to ignore those silly signs and even be attracted to those places because they know there won’t be anyone to shoot back. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/4 "2022-07-03T20:39:46Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > From this post > > [Supreme Court says Constitution protects right to carry a gun outside the home - #143 by Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-constitution-protects-right-to-carry-a-gun-outside-the-home/966692/143) > Only if those people had the most excellent training might I feel safer. Might. So what exactly do you envision if Shall Issue permit carry was allowed on the NYC subways? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/5 "2022-07-03T20:39:46Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > Are you talking about the good guys or the bad guys? I lived in Manhattan from 1991 - 2000 and always assumed there were people with concealed weapons (licensed or not) on the trains. It’s been 10 years since I’ve been on a NYC subway. But when I was I felt safer being armed because I knew there were probably some criminally armed people riding as well. I don’t carry because I’m worried about a law abiding person carrying. Every time a state legalized concealed carry there is a faction of the population that proclaims the sky is falling. And nothing ever happens. But those people rarely admit they were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/6 "2022-07-03T20:47:49Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Every time a state legalized concealed carry there is a faction of the population that proclaims the sky is falling. And nothing ever happens. But those people rarely admit they were wrong. “The sky is falling” is an untestable claim, but constitutional carry states certainly do have a statistically higher gun mortality than ones that have not adopted this policy. As to the OP of thread, no I don’t feel particularly concerned knowing concealed carry is going on around me, I actually can recognize probably 90% of people carrying concealed, and the ones good enough to make it so I can’t notice it are probably even less of a concern. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/7 "2022-07-03T20:59:47Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > Every time a state legalized concealed carry there is a faction of the population that proclaims the sky is falling. And nothing ever happens. But those people rarely admit they were wrong. > > “The sky is falling” is an untestable claim Like heck. In the 90’s and beyond when more and more states adopted concealed carry laws there were massive cries about how there would be blood in the streets, a return to the wild west, people gunning down others over fender benders and parking disputes, cops getting shot by permit holders. It’s bad enough to not admit that none of this materialized, but to deny such claims were made is even more absurd. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/8 "2022-07-03T21:37:12Z")
I’m curious how many respondents live, work, or otherwise spend significant amount of time in NYC. In 20+ years of living and working in and around NYC I can’t say I’ve ever felt particularly “unsafe” (at least not compared to anywhere else I’ve been). Nor can I recall a situation where I’ve been like “man I really wish I had a gun with me”. Unless you live in a high crime neighborhood, it strikes me as a little weird to be so worried about crime that you feel like you need to carry a gun around all the time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/9 "2022-07-03T21:42:52Z")
They would have a comprehensive background check and have done some sort of training. Those are the normal requirements to get a CCW, and the SCOTUS ruling has made clear those are acceptable. The Rand study I published shows no extra danger from CCW holders (but no extra safety for others, either) . > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > “The sky is falling” is an untestable claim, but constitutional carry states certainly do have a statistically higher gun mortality than ones that have not adopted this policy. The Rand study says different. Unless you are only talking about those few states where you don’t need a permit, with background checks, etc? I am against issuing a CCW without at least a solid background check. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/10 "2022-07-03T21:45:47Z")
Are you drawing a distinction between (permit) concealed carry and Constitutional carry ? > **[Concealed Carry Corner: Constitutional Carry vs Permit Carry](https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/05/05/concealed-carry-corner-constitutional-carry-vs-permit-carry/)** > > So it can be tricky to figure out what the best option is for you. Lets take a closer look at Constitutional Carry vs Permit Carry. I’m much less concerned about the permit carry ‘customer’ than I am about the Constitutional carry customer. Given your occupation (and _trying_ to ignore your side hustle) – sincerely – aren’t you ? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/11 "2022-07-03T21:46:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Unless you live in a high crime neighborhood, it strikes me as a little weird to be so worried about crime that you feel like you need to carry a gun around all the time. Just watching a lot of Fox News will also do it. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/12 "2022-07-03T21:52:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Rand study says different. Unless you are only talking about those few states where you don’t need a permit, with background checks, etc? You appear to not know what “constitutional carry” means. Constitutional carry has passed in around 25ish states. Not “a few.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/13 "2022-07-03T21:53:44Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Like heck. In the 90’s and beyond when more and more states adopted concealed carry laws there were massive cries about how there would be blood in the streets, a return to the wild west, people gunning down others over fender benders and parking disputes, cops getting shot by permit holders. It’s bad enough to not admit that none of this materialized, but to deny such claims were made is even more absurd. Do you have a cite for this? Sounds pretty hyperbolic. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/14 "2022-07-03T21:55:02Z")
IMHO - I’m a white-ish guy, at least unless I have a heavy tan, and would probably feel overall, less safe with carry on a NYC subway (assuming a shall-issue permit status, but not unlimited carry requirement), but not because of the good guy vs bad guy issues. I’d worry that some 8-10 year old in mom’s purse might trigger an accidental discharge. IF I was a POC, my feelings would likely tip towards _more_ safe, based on some of the hate crime based violence, but I’d still be worried about defending myself and then being attacked by the cops after. But no matter what, I’m still going to be very worried about ANYONE including cops using most weapons about a subway - close quarters, often tightly packed is a nightmare of accidental overpenetration and missed rounds going into the uninvolved. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/15 "2022-07-03T21:59:21Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Are you drawing a distinction between (permit) concealed carry and Constitutional carry ? No. In fact, I find requiring a permit or license to carry to be a violation of the Second Amendment. And in many places the requirement is ridiculous. For instance, in my state you need a license to conceal and you have to be 21 to get it, but one can open carry a handgun at 18 and no license is needed. Why on Earth should someone need training and a license just to cover up something they can already carry without the license and training? And a person intent on doing something sinister with a firearm is not going to be concerned about getting a license or permit to carry it. And they aren’t going to obey “no gun” signs. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/16 "2022-07-03T22:01:56Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > No. In fact, I find requiring a permit or license to carry to be a violation of the Second Amendment. Justice Brett Kavanaugh disagrees with you in his most recent opinion on the 2nd Amendment. This seems to suggest your opinion is neither mainstream or particularly well established. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/17 "2022-07-03T22:04:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > Like heck. In the 90’s and beyond when more and more states adopted concealed carry laws there were massive cries about how there would be blood in the streets, a return to the wild west, people gunning down others over fender benders and parking disputes, cops getting shot by permit holders. It’s bad enough to not admit that none of this materialized, but to deny such claims were made is even more absurd. > > Do you have a cite for this? Sounds pretty hyperbolic. I was there. I read the opinion pieces in the newspapers, heard the editorials on the six o’clock news, read the letters to the editors, heard the blathering from the Brady bunch. Every time a state passed concealed carry there were significant numbers acting like murder had just been legalized. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/18 "2022-07-03T22:07:08Z")
So no, you have no evidence to support your bullshit claim. Thanks for being honest about it. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/19 "2022-07-03T22:09:41Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > No. In fact, I find requiring a permit or license to carry to be a violation of the Second Amendment. > > Justice Brett Kavanaugh disagrees with you in his most recent opinion on the 2nd Amendment. > > This seems to suggest your opinion is neither mainstream or particularly well established. Interesting. Because half the states in the union are constitutional carry where no license or permit are needed. And there are more to come. Could be up to 40 states by 2025. Sounds pretty mainstream to me. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351/20 "2022-07-03T22:11:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > In 20+ years of living and working in and around NYC I can’t say I’ve ever felt particularly “unsafe” (at least not compared to anywhere else I’ve been). Nor can I recall a situation where I’ve been like “man I really wish I had a gun with me”. Not living and working, but frequently visiting for work or personal reasons reasons. Same here, feeling no more endangered than in any other major urban center’s transit. Heck, I don’t feel particularly endangered at a bus stop in Baltimore. Can’t imagine feeling less safe “after”. The place still has a ways to go to descend back into c. 1980. Besides I must assume the gentleman shuffling in a fur coat and Uggs in the middle of summer yelling about how George Soros is sending assasin spiders through his TV is not getting a permit and already sold his gun for drugs long ago. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-people-were-armed-concealed-firearms-on-a-nyc-subway-i-would-not-feel-safe-would-you/967351.md?page=2)