# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/421 "2015-09-16T00:08:48Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Well, they know their ABC’s but they can’t drive cars or show their faces in public. > > Whoop-dee-dee, Progressive Islam. How many countries can women not drive in? I’ll give you a hint- it’s one. How many countries require a face veil? Zero. None. I think around 3 require a head covering. A large number of countries, including Muslim countries, ban or officially discourage extreme forms of hijab. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/422 "2015-09-16T00:23:12Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > How many countries can women not drive in? I’ll give you a hint- it’s one. > > How many countries require a face veil? Zero. None. I think around 3 require a head covering. A large number of countries, including Muslim countries, ban or officially discourage extreme forms of hijab. Indeed, the Muslim world is the shining light of feminist progressivism. Western women ought feel ashamed that they can dress as immodest as our archaic liberal guardsmen allow them. Their struggle to depose symbols of patriarchal oppression fought in vain as the Muslim world has already figured it all out. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/423 "2015-09-16T00:26:07Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > And the New Testament. > > You keep ignoring the parts where Jesus is supposed to commit mass murder on a grand scale as wel as condoning slavery and brutality. No, just ignoring your twisted view. ---
**Author:** ![canned\_mayhem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@canned\_mayhem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canned_mayhem)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/424 "2015-09-16T00:29:05Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/wM-wxU86v8g/maxresdefault.jpg " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM-wxU86v8g) Feminists showing skin at an Arabic conference. Were they wrong for disrupting an Arabic conference? Probably. Did they deserve to be attacked and stomped on? No. Religion of peace huh? This was in France by the way… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/425 "2015-09-16T00:40:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, just ignoring your twisted view. I’m sorry you’re upset with reality and have decided to deny its existence. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/426 "2015-09-16T00:41:53Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Indeed, the Muslim world is the shining light of feminist progressivism. > > Western women ought feel ashamed that they can dress as immodest as our archaic liberal guardsmen allow them. Their struggle to depose symbols of patriarchal oppression fought in vain as the Muslim world has already figured it all out. I’m just saying, facts exist. There is plenty of fuel out there for various Islamic takes on women’s rights without saying stuff that just isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/427 "2015-09-16T00:47:42Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No, Christians [hang them for being witches.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials) Wow. The only tiny flaw in any point you might have made is that it’s the year 2015. Other than that, great post. Really timely and informative comparison of the 20 people murdered by Christians in 1693 compared to the 20,000+ people killed this year in the name of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/428 "2015-09-16T00:48:46Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I’m just saying, facts exist. There is plenty of fuel out there for various Islamic takes on women’s rights without saying stuff that just isn’t true. Damnit. Your sensibleness has left me flummoxed and vulnerable. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/429 "2015-09-16T00:58:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m sorry you’re upset with reality and have decided to deny its existence. I’m not upset. You literally have no clue what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/430 "2015-09-16T01:00:17Z")
OK, say we are all convinced of the dread threat of violent Islam. Something must be done! OK, what did you have in mind? What is to be done? I’m assuming we are already resigned to permitting them to draw breath, yes? After all, we are not vicious barbarians like the Muslims are. So, what’s your plan? ---
**Author:** ![canned\_mayhem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@canned\_mayhem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canned_mayhem)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/431 "2015-09-16T01:10:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow. The only tiny flaw in any point you might have made is that it’s the year 2015. > > Other than that, great post. Really timely and informative comparison of the 20 people murdered by Christians in 1693 compared to the 20,000+ people killed this year in the name of Islam. It always amuses me when people preach about how evil American Christians are when they deny baking a cake for a homosexual couple but totally give a pass to a culture who thinks it’s ok to stone to death a person who doesn’t accept the exact word that was put forth by a pedophile who married a 7 year old girl. I’m not even a Christian and yet the hypocrisy is glaring… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/432 "2015-09-16T01:15:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, say we are all convinced of the dread threat of violent Islam. Something must be done! > > OK, what did you have in mind? What is to be done? I’m assuming we are already resigned to permitting them to draw breath, yes? After all, we are not vicious barbarians like the Muslims are. So, what’s your plan? Support some of the next 20,000 people under attack so they don’t get slaughtered? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/433 "2015-09-16T01:22:19Z")
> [@canned\_mayhem](#): > > It always amuses me when people preach about how evil American Christians are when they deny baking a cake for a homosexual couple but totally give a pass to a culture who thinks it’s ok to stone to death a person who doesn’t accept the exact word that was put forth by a pedophile who married a 7 year old girl. > > I’m not even a Christian and yet the hypocrisy is glaring… Since no one in this thread has given a pass to any such thing, you seem to be talking nonsense. And, as has been noted throughout this thread and others like it, the number of Muslims who have any interest in stoning people for whatever reason is vanishingly small and they are members of a specific sect that is not representative of Islam throughout the world. So, if you are all into condemning 1.6 billion people for the actions of a few thousand, you are not in a position to complain about hypocrisy. As to the favorite charge (among some groups)of pedophilia, there are enough variations on the texts and enough competing recollections, that repeating that sort of nonsense as if it were fact is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/434 "2015-09-16T01:29:38Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > The reason for my trust in it is not mainly based on archeology but rather that it quite accurately describes the process of ego-dissolution. But that’s still not evidence that the Gospel of Thomas is any more the accurate record of Jesus’s thinking than the Gospel of John, or the Gospel of Truth, or the Gospel of the Ebionites. Since the earliest Christian writings we have are Paul’s letters, and he was writing after Jesus’s death, we simply cannot know for certain what Jesus said, thought, or did. > [@](#): > > The ’world’ created by the Demiurge is the same thing as the Eastern religions call the ’maya’, meaning the illusion or play that is created by your ego-mind and the collective ego-mind. It basically states that the world you inhabit is an illusion of your mind, and that while you are in it you are that illusion. And that the apparent evil in the world is created externally by the collective ego and experienced as suffering by the individual ego. > > It also says that everyone has access to ”the kingdom of heaven” which refers to a different perspective or state of consciousness, what the Buddhists call enlightenment and the Hindus call moksha. The ”kingdom of heaven” is not the same as the afterlife, but available right here and right now, as soon as you see through the illusion of a separate self, which is what the awakening actually is. You wake up from the dream of a separate and suffering little you. > > That the truth is ”accessible to an enlightened elite” is not a fair statement. The Truth is all there is, always present and always available, in fact inescapable. The Truth is already here and now, it’s just a flaw of perception that keeps one from seeing it. Of course it depends on everyone unique life story and pre-disposition if they will experience it in this life time, but pointing out that fact does not make you responsible for it. Understanding the theory of relativity is theoretically a possibility for almost everyone, but in reality it is currently mainly understood by a small elite. Pointing that out does not make me or physics teachers inherently evil. The criticism of Jesus was just that, that the faiths at the time were actively hiding the truth from people and in many if not all cases did not even know the truth themselves. > Once again ”enter into heaven” means liberating oneself from the ego, and in the language used here ”makes herself male” basically means make herself a spiritual being. At the time spirituality was not allowed for women, who were of course considered the source of all sin and basically on the level of domesticated animals regarding social rights. The very fact that Jesus taught women and said that they could become equal to men should be taken as an insanely radical statement of egalitarianism, unheard of at its time, not as a slight upon women. > Gnosticism is valid from the only two viewpoints I am interested in: > > -Providing methods for enlightenment > -Describing how the universe works Well, again, all this is your interpretation of reality. It’s great that it gives you a basis for your worldview, and presumably adds meaning to your life, but … it’s _your_ truth. It’s subjective. You brought up the theory of relativity as an example of a “hidden”, in the sense of not understood by most people, truth, and it’s a good example. Except that there is a fundamental difference between relativity and Gnosticism (or any theology): Relativity is measurable, falsifiable, and objective. You don’t have to accept it _before_ you understand it, and it works the same way no matter who’s measuring. Gnostic Christianity is worth exploring, but I don’t want to hijack this thread any further. Shall we start another thread? > [@](#): > > Your idea that Gnostics would have caused as much bloodshed as Islam or Christianity is just an angry opinion expressed without any facts to back it up. If they would, it would at least not have been possible to support the actions with their teachings. Unfortunately we will never know. Well, yes, given that it’s a historic hypothetical, it _is_ just an opinion. But I think you missed my point: Gnostics, being humans, are just a good as dividing people into “us” and “them”, and turning that dichotomy into “us” _versus_ “them”, as any other group of humans. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable idea that Gnostics, had they become the majority of Christians, would have cherry-picked, twisted, edited and rationalized their scriptures to support their mores in just the same manner that modern Christians, Muslims, and Jews do. There’s a close relationship between religion, tribalism, and warfare in the naked plains ape; always has been. And as to whether the teachings of the Gnostics could have supported bloodshed, slavery, and all the suffering orthodox Christians have inflicted over the last two thousand years, well, there’s this from the Gospel of Thomas: _(16) Jesus said, "Men think, perhaps, that it is peace which I have come to cast upon the world. They do not know that it is dissension which I have come to cast upon the earth: fire, sword, and war. For there will be five in a house: three will be against two, and two against three, the father against the son, and the son against the father. And they will stand solitary_. ---
**Author:** ![canned\_mayhem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@canned\_mayhem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canned_mayhem)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/435 "2015-09-16T01:35:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Since no one in this thread has given a pass to any such thing, you seem to be talking nonsense. You are right and I am sorry for that. My feelings always seem to get the best of me when discussing this subject. Watching my fellow countrymen leap off the twin towers instead of getting burned to death has left a lasting bitter taste in my mouth. Watching scores a Muslims dance in the streets as a reaction to that senseless evil has left a black hole in the pit of my soul that I believe will never resolve itself. “A radical Muslim wants to cut your head off. A moderate Muslim wants a radical Muslim to cut your head off.” ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/436 "2015-09-16T01:43:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, say we are all convinced of the dread threat of violent Islam. Something must be done! > > OK, what did you have in mind? What is to be done? I’m assuming we are already resigned to permitting them to draw breath, yes? After all, we are not vicious barbarians like the Muslims are. So, what’s your plan? Apparently the plan is to endlessly bitch on anonymous message boards about some notion of ‘apologists’ for Islam. That seems to be about all there is. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/437 "2015-09-16T01:44:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m not upset. You literally have no clue what you’re talking about. Then I’m terribly sorry for you that you’re not as familiar with the New Testament as you’d like to think you are. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/438 "2015-09-16T01:49:46Z")
> [@canned\_mayhem](#): > > . . . “A radical Muslim wants to cut your head off. A moderate Muslim wants a radical Muslim to cut your head off.” That’s where the argument falls apart; this simply isn’t true. Moderates are opposed to beheadings of innocents, and the taking of innocents as hostages. That isn’t what moderates are about. Do American moderate Christians want radical Christians to blow up abortion clinics or murder gays? Nope. Moderates don’t cheer for radicalism; only radicals do. The whole problem with the entire thread is that it is founded upon misconceptions of this nature. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/439 "2015-09-16T01:50:20Z")
> [@canned\_mayhem](#): > > You are right and I am sorry for that. > > My feelings always seem to get the best of me when discussing this subject. Watching my fellow countrymen leap off the twin towers instead of getting burned to death has left a lasting bitter taste in my mouth. Watching scores a Muslims dance in the streets as a reaction to that senseless evil has left a black hole in the pit of my soul that I believe will never resolve itself. > > “A radical Muslim wants to cut your head off. A moderate Muslim wants a radical Muslim to cut your head off.” Er, so you’re not really _sorry_ after all, eh? ---
**Author:** ![canned\_mayhem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/53a042/32.png) [@canned\_mayhem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/canned_mayhem)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/440 "2015-09-16T02:06:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Moderates don’t cheer for radicalism; only radicals do. > > The whole problem with the entire thread is that it is founded upon misconceptions of this nature. After 9/11 there were countless videos from around the world of people dancing and celebrating the attack of our innocent civilians. I have yet to see a single video of a crowd of people celebrating a drone attack on a Muslim. Show me a video of some assholes burning a Koran and I’ll show you videos of Muslim flipping out and rioting after the fact. When was the last time anyone flipped out and rioted over the hundreds of videos of Muslims burning the American flag and declaring war on the evil American infidel or Christianity? Why do I even have to point this out??? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=23)