# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/501 "2015-09-18T01:04:42Z")
So its ok for us to be intolerant of Muslims, because they aren’t as good as we are. As evidenced by the fact that we are so much more tolerant. K. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/502 "2015-09-18T01:13:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So its ok for us to be intolerant of Muslims, because they aren’t as good as we are. As evidenced by the fact that we are so much more tolerant. K. Christian societies are, relatively-speaking, much more tolerant of religious mockery. To use the moral relativism of “Christian-normative upbringing” to wash away this simple reality achieves nothing. Cast shadow on light and claim to bring insight. Not this time. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/504 "2015-09-18T01:20:47Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Christian societies are, relatively-speaking, much more tolerant of religious mockery. Christian societies in 2015 tend to be a bit more tolerant of religious mockery than Muslim societies in 2015. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/505 "2015-09-18T01:55:59Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I did read it. And it does. Note my use of the word persecuted. No you didn’t. The article wasn’t specific to one religion. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/506 "2015-09-18T02:05:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So its ok for us to be intolerant of Muslims, because they aren’t as good as we are. As evidenced by the fact that we are so much more tolerant. K. If by intolerant you mean the right to express ourselves anyway we see fit then yes. That’s what freedom of speech is all about. And we’re collectively not shy about expressing ourselves. But you knew this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/507 "2015-09-18T02:07:25Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Christian societies in 2015 tend to be a bit more tolerant of religious mockery than Muslim societies in 2015. If by a bit more you mean 20,000 dead this year alone then yes. You were just off a bit on your scale of tolerance by a factor of thousands. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/508 "2015-09-18T02:31:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Christian societies in 2015 tend to be a bit more tolerant of religious mockery than Muslim societies in 2015. Agreed but I think, and unless I’m horribly wrong, you think as well, this has less to do with theological differences and more to do with non-theological differences. Similarly while the Muslim Medieval World was more tolerant than the Christian World, that wasn’t because the Quran was inherently more peaceful than the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/509 "2015-09-18T03:00:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed but I think, and unless I’m horribly wrong, you think as well, this has less to do with theological differences and more to do with non-theological differences. > > Similarly while the Muslim Medieval World was more tolerant than the Christian World, that wasn’t because the Quran was inherently more peaceful than the Bible. True. This thread started out with a fallacy of the excluded middle. When I pointed out how vast that excluded middle was, the OP changed direction and introduced the whole “scripture says” issue. The current sniping is based, again, on ignoring any cultural issues (and a lot of other information) and denying conflicting information, to cherry pick examples of different people being “bad,” then pretending that the individuals who were “bad” are congruent with a billion and a half people who have never engaged in the “bad” behavior. And so it goes. . . . ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/510 "2015-09-18T15:19:47Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > If your point is that Christian societies are tolerant of criticism and even shameless mockery, then you proved Magiver’s point… > [@Stringbean](#): > > To use the moral relativism of “Christian-normative upbringing” to wash away this simple reality achieves nothing. Re-read the posts; that wasn’t my point, it was a non sequitur that **Magiver** responded with. The relative levels of tolerance of mockery has zip to do with one’s biases toward religion as a result of one’s upbringing. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/511 "2015-09-18T23:23:55Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > The quote you provide is not about killing people, it is about the inner conflict that arises as you go through the process of liberating yourself from the ego. That’s the difference between the Gnostic texts and the Bible. The Bible is exoteric, providing codes of behaviors, worship etc, whereas the Gospel of Thomas is esoteric and contains parables mainly about the process of enlightenment. Well, again, according to your interpretation. But you can’t see how that saying - or 114, that I quoted earlier: _(114) Simon Peter said to him, “Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life.” Jesus said, “I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.”_ …could be twisted and used to justify violence or misogyny? If so, I think you have a somewhat optimistic view of humanity, homie. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/512 "2015-09-19T14:35:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Re-read the posts; that wasn’t my point, it was a non sequitur that **Magiver** responded with. The relative levels of tolerance of mockery has zip to do with one’s biases toward religion as a result of one’s upbringing. Really? So the substantial amount of mockery of the Christian religion means what exactly? Americans are intolerant of the religion? I would describe intolerance as the slaughtering of 20,000 people in one year. And the year’s not over. Recognizing and discussing this as a religious based problem is about as tolerant as it gets. Nobody is killing people or calling for a fatwa because pages “might” be separated from a bible or a cartoon mocks Jesus. Knock yourself out. Burn a bible, make art out of it. The tolerance exists in very large quantities to do so. That cannot be said for destroying a Quran. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/513 "2015-09-19T14:42:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > True. This thread started out with a fallacy of the excluded middle. No it didn’t. The violence and death, just in this year, is worthy of comment and your middle ground argument falls flat against the sheer numbers of people killed. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/514 "2015-09-19T15:10:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Really? So the substantial amount of mockery of the Christian religion means what exactly? It means some non-zero number of Americans are critical of Christianity. > [@Magiver](#): > > Americans are intolerant of the religion? Not generally, no. There may be some amount of anti-Christian violence or discrimination, but not much. > [@Magiver](#): > > I would describe intolerance as the slaughtering of 20,000 people in one year. And the year’s not over. Recognizing and discussing this as a religious based problem is about as tolerant as it gets. Nobody is killing people or calling for a fatwa because pages “might” be separated from a bible or a cartoon mocks Jesus. Knock yourself out. Burn a bible, make art out of it. The tolerance exists in very large quantities to do so. That cannot be said for destroying a Quran. Is it a religious-based problem, though? There are violent Muslims, and non-violent Muslims. There are violent Christians, and non-violent Christians. It’s material factors, not the chocolate-or-vanilla choice of which Abrahamic religion to follow, that matter here. Due to various geographical and historical factors, many Christians live in wealthy, secular states, and many Muslims live in poor dictatorships. Guess which situation leads to the use of violence as a political tool, and tribalism? And just to circle back to my original point: do not assume you are neutral in your attitudes toward the various religions. That you are neutral appears to be your starting point, and I believe it’s leading you astray in your thinking on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/515 "2015-09-19T16:22:25Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Is it a religious-based problem, though? There are violent Muslims, and non-violent Muslims. There are violent Christians, and non-violent Christians. It’s material factors, not the chocolate-or-vanilla choice of which Abrahamic religion to follow, that matter here. Due to various geographical and historical factors, many Christians live in wealthy, secular states, and many Muslims live in poor dictatorships. Guess which situation leads to the use of violence as a political tool, and tribalism? violence by a Christian or Muslim is not the subject. It’s violence based on, and in the name of, the religion that is the focus of this thread. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > And just to circle back to my original point: do not assume you are neutral in your attitudes toward the various religions. That you are neutral appears to be your starting point, and I believe it’s leading you astray in your thinking on this matter. My attitude toward the subject is that there is a clear and distinct problem with the volume of violence associated with Islam over other religions. The violence extends directly from the religion and we see this in Fatwas issued by religious leaders. We see this in the training camps. We see it in official government doctrine in countries based on the religion. It all stems from the direct words and actions of the progenitor of the religion. It’s disingenuous to say that because the majority of the followers aren’t actively slaughtering people then the religion isn’t the problem. As a general rule people don’t want to live like that. But the religion is a training manual for the less reasoned person to force other’s to their view. there is no tolerance in this segment. Their religion is the religion of peace and they will literally kill anyone who disagrees with them. It is not reasonable to dismiss the religious connection to the violence that is committed as a direct result of it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/516 "2015-09-19T17:14:02Z")
You keep flinging that “20,000” in our faces without citation. Bring. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/517 "2015-09-19T22:24:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No it didn’t. The violence and death, just in this year, is worthy of comment and your middle ground argument falls flat against the sheer numbers of people killed. Even if the number killed was 100,000, the question asked was “just religion or just culture” and both of those answers, alone, would be wrong. That you are unable to recognize the result of political actions by Europeans in the early twentieth century and later Cold War actions on the populations being examined does not make your beliefs true. That you are unaware of (and refuse to learn about) all the different ideologies and conflicts within the Muslim world does not make your beliefs true. That you confuse political desires for empire building with some sort of “pure” religious drive does not make your beliefs true. What “falls flat” is your simplistic world view in which every event or condition that actually has had an impact on reality is discarded if it does not match your preconceived beliefs about an “Islam” that has never existed. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/518 "2015-09-19T22:57:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > That you are unaware of (and refuse to learn about) all the different ideologies and conflicts within the Muslim world does not make your beliefs true. I’m sorry, but you can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim Islam is not a source of violence then turn around and talk about the conflict within Islam between the peaceful members and the violent members. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/519 "2015-09-19T23:26:42Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m sorry, but you can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim Islam is not a source of violence. Had he ever claimed that Islamic beliefs are at least partly responsible for violence you’d have a point, but he didn’t so you don’t. You seem to be dodging people’s arguments and seem to believe there are only two possibilities. A) Islam is the most peaceful religion on Earth and to suggest that Islam beliefs are ever responsible for violence is bigoted nonsense. or B) Islam is completely evil. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/520 "2015-09-19T23:33:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Had he ever claimed that Islamic beliefs are at least partly responsible for violence you’d have a point, but he didn’t so you don’t. > > You seem to be dodging people’s arguments and seem to believe there are only two possibilities. > > A) Islam is the most peaceful religion on Earth and to suggest that Islam beliefs are ever responsible for violence is bigoted nonsense. > > or > > B) Islam is completely evil. Except that I have said the complete opposite on many occasions. Most Muslims living in countries with democratic protection of civil rights are decent, normal people. I’m sure even in countries with Sharia law you can find lots of decent moral people. But you can also find lots and lots and lots of problems in countries with Sharia Law, based upon values of civil rights, problems that come directly from Sharia Law, which, come directly from either the Koran or the Hadith. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/521 "2015-09-19T23:38:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > My attitude toward the subject is that there is a clear and distinct problem with the volume of violence associated with Islam over other religions. . . . while pretending that nothing but religion has occurred in the part of the world where that violence occurs. > [@Magiver](#): > > The violence extends directly from the religion and we see this in Fatwas issued by religious leaders. We see this in the training camps. We see it in official government doctrine in countries based on the religion. It all stems from the direct words and actions of the progenitor of the religion. And you are back to pretending that Wahhabism is the same as Islam, even though the majority of Muslims are actually striving against that sect and its violence. > [@Magiver](#): > > It’s disingenuous to say that because the majority of the followers aren’t actively slaughtering people then the religion isn’t the problem. Real disingenuous claims are ones that make a point of ignoring the fact that the violence is only a few decades old and corresponds to specific political and cultural events in the world, (including the persecution of followers of that religion). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=27)