# If radical Islam is violent due to culture and not religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741 "2015-09-11T23:24:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/662 "2015-09-22T16:38:01Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > BTW…if we wanna take note of a religious figure that was openly pro Nazi take a look at this guy > > [Holocaust Encyclopedia | United States Holocaust Memorial Museum](http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007667) [The Nazis believed that Islamic forces would prove crucial wartime allies. But, as David Motadel shows, the Muslim world was unwilling to be swayed by the Third Reich’s advances.](http://www.historytoday.com/david-motadel/muslims-hitlers-war) ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/663 "2015-09-22T16:41:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My understanding is that this has been [proven mostly false](http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard). Most Germans were aware of the Holocaust – they knew about the camps (some of which were in Germany), for the most part, and they knew that people (Jews and others) were brought in, and executed and/or worked to death. They also were aware of the mass deportation of Jews eastwards, never to be seen again. And, of course, hundreds of thousands of German soldiers and SS personnel (and others) saw firsthand aspects of the Holocaust in action. > > In short, it wasn’t particularly hidden to Germans, and Germans at the time were mostly okay with it. The death camps were all in Poland They might have ‘been aware’ but there was nothing individuals could do because the slightest protest landed one in a KZ and maybe being executed. Links please that specifically ordinary Germans were aware of the intentional planned elimination of Europes Jews. I am aware that people knew of violence and murder but few actually knew of the Holocaust itself. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/664 "2015-09-22T16:42:59Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > [The Nazis believed that Islamic forces would prove crucial wartime allies. But, as David Motadel shows, the Muslim world was unwilling to be swayed by the Third Reich’s advances.](http://www.historytoday.com/david-motadel/muslims-hitlers-war) I didnt accuse the Muslim world…just the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and a few other nationalists. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/665 "2015-09-22T16:46:25Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I didnt accuse the Muslim world…just the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and a few other nationalists. So, a handful of Muslims. How many German Christians were Nazis? Why was “Gott Mit Uns” inscribed on the belt buckle of every Wehrmacht soldier during World War II? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/666 "2015-09-22T16:50:03Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > [http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/23/list-of-hitler-quotes-he-was-q/](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/23/list-of-hitler-quotes-he-was-q/) > > And the only reason the scientific racism of the Nazis was accepted (and the only reason it was so focused on Jews) was because of the centuries of religious antisemitism that pervaded Europe and particularly Germany. > > Or do you think that the Nazi obsession with Judaism sprung up _ex nihilo_ in 1933? > > Really? So who was it that planned and executed the Holocaust, from the attendees at Wannsee to the KZ personnel and the members of the Einsatzgruppen? Magical fairies? > > If you say so. Then how do you explain the slaughter of Gypsies and gays? Please have a look at this [Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland: Browning, Christopher R.: 9780060995065: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Solution/dp/0060995068) many of the killers were not Nazis and didnt want to participate in killing. Again, a miniscule number of people were even aware of the Holocaust. It was a state secret. The Nazis did all they could to hide their actions including sending KZ personnel to fight in regions where it was likely that they would be killed. And I do say so. Your attempt to link Naziism with christianity is the weakest argument in this painful thread. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/667 "2015-09-22T16:51:35Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > So, a handful of Muslims. How many German Christians were Nazis? Why was “Gott Mit Uns” inscribed on the belt buckle of every Wehrmacht soldier during World War II? Got Mit Uns is on the lips of every Muslim who kills innocent civilians. Not to mention just about every soldier in the history of the world. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/668 "2015-09-22T16:56:44Z")
> [@](#): > > …Why was “Gott Mit Uns” inscribed on the belt buckle of every Wehrmacht soldier during World War II? At least partly because it was a “patriotic” phrase with a long history, especially as regards WWI. Remember, the Nazis got a lot of their early energy from veterans who could not grasp how they had lost the war and fell easy prey to themes of betrayal. Also, Nazis got a lot of mileage out of contrasting themselves with the atheistic Communists. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/669 "2015-09-22T16:59:01Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Then how do you explain the slaughter of Gypsies and gays? Because both of those groups _also_ had a long history of persecution in Christian Europe. > [@](#): > > Please have a look at this [Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland: Browning, Christopher R.: 9780060995065: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Solution/dp/0060995068) many of the killers were not Nazis and didnt want to participate in killing. Again, a miniscule number of people were even aware of the Holocaust. It was a state secret. The Nazis did all they could to hide their actions including sending KZ personnel to fight in regions where it was likely that they would be killed. As historian Richard Evans has pointed out, this is not true. The Germans were quite in favor of the persecutions and violence against Jews, and were well aware of what was happening to those sent East. And, again, the entire murderous regime and its genocidal bureaucracy from the top to the bottom, composed of millions of people, was made up of Christian and culturally Christian Europeans. > [@](#): > > And I do say so. Your attempt to link Naziism with christianity is the weakest argument in this painful thread. You’re certainly entitled to your own opinions. Too bad facts and history disagree with you. > [@madsircool](#): > > Got Mit Uns is on the lips of every Muslim who kills innocent civilians. Not to mention just about every soldier in the history of the world. Which kind of torpedoes the whole “Muslims are more violent than everyone else because of their uniquely violent religion” thesis, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/670 "2015-09-22T17:00:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > At least partly because it was a “patriotic” phrase with a long history, especially as regards WWI. Remember, the Nazis got a lot of their early energy from veterans who could not grasp how they had lost the war and fell easy prey to themes of betrayal. Also, Nazis got a lot of mileage out of contrasting themselves with the atheistic Communists. Agreed. Also, in Germany, it was smart to avoid religion because the population was split between Catholic and Protestant and they didnt exactly see eye to eye. So an appeal to religion in Germany was always bound to fail. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/671 "2015-09-22T17:03:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > At least partly because it was a “patriotic” phrase with a long history, especially as regards WWI. Remember, the Nazis got a lot of their early energy from veterans who could not grasp how they had lost the war and fell easy prey to themes of betrayal. Also, Nazis got a lot of mileage out of contrasting themselves with the atheistic Communists. Right. The Nazis didn’t represent some atheistic break with Germany’s religious past. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/672 "2015-09-22T17:04:22Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Agreed. Also, in Germany, it was smart to avoid religion because the population was split between Catholic and Protestant and they didnt exactly see eye to eye. So an appeal to religion in Germany was always bound to fail. And yet Hitler appealed to it _a lot_. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/673 "2015-09-22T17:05:45Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Because both of those groups _also_ had a long history of persecution in Christian Europe. > > As historian Richard Evans has pointed out, this is not true. The Germans were quite in favor of the persecutions and violence against Jews, and were well aware of what was happening to those sent East. And, again, the entire murderous regime and its genocidal bureaucracy from the top to the bottom, composed of millions of people, was made up of Christian and culturally Christian Europeans. > > You’re certainly entitled to your own opinions. Too bad facts and history disagree with you. > > Which kind of torpedoes the whole “Muslims are more violent than everyone else because of their uniquely violent religion” thesis, doesn’t it? You realize that you engage in exactly the same kind of stereotyping and blind ignorance that you are trying to fight against? You have no facts. You have presented no facts that Christianity and Naziism were related in any way. In fact, lets use your thinking process and blame Islam for all the crimes of Sadam Hussein and the Assads because they were all Muslims, right? BTW…links please to any evidence you have that ordinary Germans were in favor of the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/674 "2015-09-22T17:07:01Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > And yet Hitler appealed to it _a lot_. Cites please. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/675 "2015-09-22T17:10:20Z")
> [@A\_isha](#): > > Right. The Nazis didn’t represent some atheistic break with Germany’s religious past. They represented a biological/racial break from religion. They saw themselves as a people because of their ‘superior culture’ not because of any appeal to religion. Were the Nazis really christian they would not have slaughtered Eastern European christians willynilly. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/676 "2015-09-22T17:13:59Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Were the Nazis really christian they would not have slaughtered Eastern European christians willynilly. Now that right there is some truly bizarre logic. Since when have Christians ever been hesitant to kill other Christians? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/677 "2015-09-22T17:16:21Z")
_Orthodox_ Christians. Crossed themselves backwards, opened the wrong end of a hard boiled egg. Kidding aside, the more recent comity between Catholic and Orthodox Christians was not prevalent at the time. Jesus wept. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/678 "2015-09-22T17:18:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Now that right there is some truly bizarre logic. Since when have Christians ever been hesitant to kill other Christians? You miss the point. A’Isha is saying the Nazis killed because of their Christian beliefs, If so, why did the Nazis kill other Christians with the same passion as they went after the Jews? Is it because religion didnt matter to them? They had other motivation for Genocide. Unless you too want to claim the Nazis were somehow a christian party. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/679 "2015-09-22T17:20:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > _Orthodox_ Christians. Crossed themselves backwards, opened the wrong end of a hard boiled egg. Kidding aside, the more recent comity between Catholic and Orthodox Christians was not prevalent at the time. Jesus wept. I dont disagree with you. My point is that the Nazis specifically were not in any way christian…in fact, their belief systems were antithetical to mainstrean christianity. Im also a bit puzzled why A’Ishas postings arent as fought as strongly as the OP. Edited to add: The Poles and some Ukranians were Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![A\_isha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@A\_isha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_isha)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/680 "2015-09-22T17:21:20Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You realize that you engage in exactly the same kind of stereotyping and blind ignorance that you are trying to fight against? No, I’m pointing out that Islam is _not_ uniquely and especially violent, since one of the most violent and murderous regimes in human history was Christian. I’m not arguing that Christianity is uniquely and especially violent, just that being Christian is not going to prevent violence any more than being Muslim is going to cause violence. > [@](#): > > BTW…links please to any evidence you have that ordinary Germans were in favor of the Holocaust. Richard Evans’ three volume history of the Third Reich, particularly the third volume, and Christopher Browning’s The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942 > [@madsircool](#): > > Cites please. Post 660. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741/681 "2015-09-22T17:25:30Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Why does that matter, at all? I’m concerned about the way the violence is happening in current events, right now. Why would anyone give 2 shits about something that happened ages ago? In fact, if it helps to lump them all together, I’m good with that. Because what happened ages ago conditions what’s happening today. No society is born _ex nihilo_ every morning ; and much of the violence attributed to “Islam” is really a whole lot more about social trends going back decades, and nationalisms that have been brewing for at least a century, and ethno-cultural fuckery and so on and so forth. Taking in more data as proposed by **tomndebb** , as opposed to focusing on a specific snapshot of very specific countries and focusing on a time frame of a couple decades at the most (if that !), is the best way to grok that “Islam” - whatever mess of characteristics and special pleading one boils it down to - is, if maybe not a complete non-factor, at least not a particularly meaningful or determining one in predicting or assessing the behaviour of that sub-group of the global population who self-describe as Muslims. Which is a whole fucking lot of \*\*vastly \*\*different people, verily I shiteth thee notte. “Lumping it all” down to “Islam bad” is silly, simplistic and frankly off-putting ; even more so if one derives from it not just facile conclusions and absurd rants on The Interwebs, but political and geopolitical actions based on this simplistic understanding of the world, or the people that exist in it. Another point for looking at stuff that happened ages ago : because, more often than not, it’s the exact same shit that’s happening today (albeit sometimes with different actors, but not as often as would be conducive to preserving my sanity :p) and maybe we might want to at least \*try \*and not make the same mistakes again. Again. _Again_. Kind of similar to why it’s a neat thing to remember that putting your hand on the stove hurt a lot that one time, and it probably still would hurt to do so today. Even if you were 6 at the time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-radical-islam-is-violent-due-to-culture-and-not-religion/730741.md?page=35)